|
| Author |
Messages |
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
 |
| 01/20/2011 8:43 AM |
|
trueblu,
I apologize for not accurately depicting your actual meaning.
My bad! These comments led me to jump to the conclusion of 'all day' not for select hours in a given day.
I think the problem here is that those of us who hunt and live in areas that require dogs to cover a lot of ground at speed, who hunt from 4 wheelers, trucks, etc. on leases that are anywhere from 5000 to 1250000 acres tend to think of NE dogs being underfoot and in comparison are.
Yes, we use Trackers, GPS, etc. But, most often the dogs are 300 yards to 1/4 mile and are hunting at speed the likely potentially bird holding objectives.
I apoligize for saying you are contradicting yourself.
You appear to be writing that your dogs hunt 200 yards and up to 1 mile,have speeds up to 10-14 mph and also hunt slower according to the terrain.
I misunderstood that your dogs hunt either or.
I agree with the HUNTING, I agree with your definition that I quoted.
Ryan,
what genetics are you referring to?
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
|
| 01/20/2011 10:10 AM |
|
"What I said was, "Run is an issue because in areas that require dogs to run at a speed of 10-14 mph for hours on end to cover the ground that must be covered VERSUS the person who hunts 25 acre plots...". HOURS are defined as multiple time periods of 60 minutes. I hunt my dogs 2-3 hours a day typically and yes, they can go that hard for 2 plus hours, NOT all day. There isn't a dog anywhere that can run at that speed for 6 plus hours in a day muchless ALL day. So, please don't paraphrase comments, at least have the courtesy of quoting what people say. "
"What I will say about the topic of run though, so many trialers are so hung up on run, their definition seems to be: a dog's ability to cover a tremendous amount of ground and distance at top speed, they forget that run without HUNTING is worth SQUAT!! I have quoted one thing John Rabidou has said to me over and over again, and it all boils down to one word "HUNTING". So, when I judge any event, whether a trial or hunting test, the dog, as Mr. Rabidou has said, "had better be HUNTING every step". As breeders we had better not forget that one word, HUNTING!!"
These two quotes from Trueblues last post are the best I have seen with regard to the definition for "run."
I would only add that there is not a dog out there that could live up to this definition without correct conformation. Eventually bad conformation will catch up with the dog.
Which leads me to respond to Ryan when he states:
"Genetics makes him run for 6+ hours at 10-14mph. You can have all the conformation in the world if the dog doesnt have the genetics to run at those speeds he isnt going to do it. Same with range."
Genetics may give him the drive to run as you say, to achieve the range you describe and hunt the way you want your dog to hunt, but without the conformation to go along with the drive, desire, whatever you want to call it that dog will be crippled up before he is very old. No way a badly put together dog could handle the speed and range over various terrain if he is structurally unsound.
So, I will say again it is the whole package and not just the pieces that we need to be concerned with when breeding a shorthair. If show folks are not paying attention to the field aspects of the breed, then shame on them. Likewise, if field folks are ignoring the conformation, then shame on them too.
|
|
Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
|
|
briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
|
| 01/20/2011 10:48 AM |
|
I give up , ...like I said before its better to see it ..
and I like the breast stroke just as well as a olympic swimmer ...But I dont like to watch anyone drowning or flip flopping around in the pool trying to catch their breath ..
I am gone hunting good luck figuring it out ..... |
|
My Pups:
   
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 01/20/2011 11:26 AM |
|
OOPS! MY BAD!
edited by pixie bee
I did make a statement saying that trueblu said his dogs could run all day at 10-14 mph, when in fact he was referring to select hours within a day.
Thanks,
Francine |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
|
| 01/20/2011 11:45 AM |
|
Briar - I am sorry, but I did not get the comparison between Miss America and the Olympics. If you are saying the show ring is like Miss America, and the Olympics are like the field trials, then, ok, I kind of get what you mean. However, the show ring or IMHO better described as the breed ring, is supposed to judge whether or not a dog is close enough to the standard, with no disqualifications, and is the nicest dog in the ring on that day. Thus, they should be awarded a CH as a dog worthy of breeding after acquiring the 15 points and two majors, etc. That IMHO means the whole dog, not just one that looks pretty. (I never liked the Miss America pageant very much anyway as I always thought it did a disservice to the women competing.) Is it perfect? No, but then nothing in life is perfect. On the other hand, the field trials and hunt test judge the dogs abilities in the hunting area. Hunt tests judge against the hunt test standard and field trials against the other dogs competing that day. Neither the hunt test or the field trial though were intended to be a venue for judging breeding stock. Which is why in my earlier post I would like to see a JH on every dog that goes into the breed ring and to a lesser extent I would like to see a temperament test. Still wouldn't be a perfect world and we do have to take into consideration what the requirements would to the dog world with regard to competitions and attendance too, but we would be getting closer.
There is no easy answer that everyone will like, but I still think we get closer to doing justice to our dogs if we consider the whole and refrain from focusing on just one part or aspect of the dog. |
|
Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
|
|
RyanGSP
MH
Posts:427
|
| 01/20/2011 12:34 PM |
|
The genetic make up of your dog. The parents grandparent ggrandparents and so on. What other genetics would I be referring to.
If all the dogs in the pedigree are 100 yard dogs you have a slim chance of getting a 300+ yard dog.
Now if both parents are All Age dogs you got much better chance of getting a big running dog.
You can always reel them in but generally dogs wont triple their range from one stop to another, in the same cover. |
|
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 01/20/2011 1:24 PM |
|
How many AA dogs come from AA parents?
I thought you had something more specific about genes and inheritence.
Even if it were possible to have all dogs in the first 4 generations with the same range
they would certainly carry "range' genes not expressed that will be expressed in their litters. I believe there are many wash-outs for field trialing due to range that make wonderful foot hunting dogs.
I have not heard the term "run" before this thread,which is I why I am particular about its definition.
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
|
| 01/20/2011 2:21 PM |
|
Pixie, now we could get into what is a true all age dog, a gun dog, a shooting dog, a walking shooting dog, but, no, please. However, the true true all age dog is a freak, an abhoration in any and all breeds. So few true all age dogs exist in the world it's scary. However, let's just say, an all age dog is a dog that is capable of winning hour championships at the all age level and/or can win weekend all age stakes and actually fulfill the criteria of a true all age dog. This assumes we are not just putting up a nice bigger gun dog in all age stakes cause "he's the best we had that day".
How many all age dogs come from all age parents? Pretty close to the same percentage as the number of all age dogs who are from the breeding of two nice bigger going gun dogs or shooting dogs. It is mostly about the breeding and genetics. However, when we consider a dog a gun dog or shooting dog, is he one of those due to his training, his experience, and/or his breeding?? Did an all age dog come from two dogs whose parentage was made up of all age hour champions or from the breeding of dogs that had been shortened by training or maybe from parents who themselves are/were just nice gun dogs but tended to produce bigger going animals? Those are all questions that can't be answered. Why do breeders breed and breed and never win a national championship or produce even one all age dog? Why do certain dogs produce bigger goers? Why are some females blue hens? I own a blue hen and I can kind of tell you why, but not exactly.
What I do know, is that if you breed two show dogs to each other, 99.99999% of the time you will not get an all age dog. However, if you breed two field trial champions to each other, you have about a 10%, at best, chance of getting a shooting dog or all age competitor. Now, breed that blue hen to another dog with NFC parents and your chances go up to maybe 30%.
But, you're right, the parents and grandparents pass on the "range gene" to their get and grandget. If you breed a pig to a pig you ain't gonna get a cheetah. |
|
|
|
|
briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
|
| 01/20/2011 2:44 PM |
|
But that is where the problems arise Bev your definition of a good hunting dog and my definition of a good hunting dog, and someones elses definition of a good hunting dog would be different depending on where they live the terrain they hunt and how they hunt and for what they hunt , so what some may consider the best of the best for being a breedable dog others would say that dog is worthless...Does being a show CH make a beedable dog heck NO , so to say that is the proving grounds of a breedable dog is a joke ..
and a JH title says nothing if the dog took 4 years and 12 attempts to achieve it ..that dog has very little hunting instinct..
I do like what the DK breeders have done and give them credit for their system of proving the dog in the field and in the conformation area , but are they the perfect GSP for everyone who hunts a GSP ..NO
see thats the problem when you put a group in charge of what makes a breedable dog ones idea of perfection is far from anothers idea of perfection..So the majority of the groupl decides what is perfection does that mean the rest of the people who have their own idea of perfection can no longer breed their dogs ... that would stink for them |
|
My Pups:
|
|
|
Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
|
| 01/20/2011 4:09 PM |
|
I did not say being a CH makes a breedable dog. I believe I said that the breed ring was for determining whether a dog should be considered as breeding stock. That said, there are allot of dogs that have CH in front of their name that I would not breed, but there are also as many that have FC in there name that I consider likewise inappropriate for breeding. I look long and hard at my dogs and make a decision. I, in fact, just neutered my male who I had high hopes for. He is beautiful and I have been told by some he has "run," but he in my evaluation is too straight in the front. So, I choose to not show him in the breed ring (even thought I know I could finish him), and I had him neutered. Hard choices, but as a breeder we have to make them. I also said the breed ring was not perfect. As for the JH if someone takes 12 attempts and 4 years to get the JH then their dog is going to be pretty old before it would be eligible to show if we require a JH on a dog. It is IMHO opinion a ridiculous example. I frankly don't even know of anyone who has spent 4 years attempting to put a JH on a dog. So, I think we should stay within the world or the rational and reasonable.
It is ok to not like my idea, but I see no one else offering any solutions to attempt to reconcile the diverging tracks of the show and field world. So, instead of just shooting down my suggestion with a ridiculous example, offer up some alternatives. Will we ever agree no, but I would hope there is room somewhere for a compromise. Otherwise, we are likely destined to see two or more varieties of shorthairs down the rode. Some would probably argue we are there already. Maybe that is for the best in the end, but I don't think so. At least where the dogs are concerned.
BTW we have the parent club and anyone can make a proposal and follow the rules to get it approved. If we don't like the rules, we change them through the process, but there is a process. And yes, someone is usually left unhappy. Those that are unhappy have a choice; they can play by the rules and change them or they do not have play by these rules and can go off and do their own thing which is pretty much what is happening today. So all of this discussion in the end is moot, but it is still an interesting discussion as I try to manage my dogs to a higher standard than even the parent club may recommend. In the end, it is up to the breeder to do the right thing based on their knowledge of shorthairs. |
|
Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
|
|
briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
|
| 01/20/2011 5:33 PM |
|
True Bev in the end its up to the breeder, and if there were rules to breed by then you can bet they would be loose enough to have different types or styles within the breed..
I personally dont care for idea of a group being in charge of breeding rights, sometimes groups lean towards what the majority think is best which may not necessarly be what is really best for the breed.. Leaving it up to the breeders makes a more diverse breed but anyone can easly find the perfect dog for them with a little research within the breed ..
although the JH test example was a little far fetched it certainly wasnt that far fetched I seen a Ch at one of the hunt tests I was at 6 years old and attempting its 7th try at passing the last leg of the JH it failed its leg by not finding a bird the lady who owned the dog said well will have to try again ...that dog had been bred several times before ...
Do hunt testing or Field Trials really prove a dogs hunting ability ?? Does the show ring prove a quality hunter ?? The show ring may be as you claimed "they should be awarded a CH as a dog worthy of breeding" for a poodle or bull dog but it proves nothing of a dog worthy of breeding in a hunting dog breed ...
|
|
My Pups:
|
|
|
Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
|
|
Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
|
| 01/20/2011 7:22 PM |
|
Here you go Bev  Posted By trueblushorthairs on 01/19/2011 9:23 AM
Pixie, I by no means named you in anything I posted. The word "others" may or may not be speaking of you. You posted information about Ames as if you knew something about the venue. I have been to Ames, not during the National Championship but have been to the grounds.
You want a definition of run...verb (used without object)
1. to go quickly by moving the legs more rapidly than at a walk and in such a manner that for an instant in each step all or both feet are off the ground.
2. to move with haste; act quickly: Run upstairs and get the iodine.
3. to depart quickly; take to flight; flee or escape: to run from danger.
However, if you are asking for the definition of run in a field trial venue, then I would say that run is a dog's ability to range at speed in search of game. Simple right? Run is directly affected by the objectives and cover available. If a dog hunts likely objectives at a speed proportionate to the cover in a proper and intelligent search for game, then I would say that dog has run. The error as I see it is when those who are not experienced in wild bird hunting or horseback field trialing only define run as range. A dog having run can range 200 yards or 1 mile, depends on his methodology and speed(to an extent). A dog that lays his ears back and doesn't hunt a step may be said to have run, but that dog is running and/or running off. A dog with "run" must still hunt IMHO. However, if he potters, relies on whistle commands, hand signals, has a slow pattern of movement, hunts every bush, etc. etc. he doesn't have run.
I don't defend my dogs as they have proven all they need to prove in trials and in wild bird hunting.
|
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|
Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
|
| 01/20/2011 7:35 PM |
|
Bev, If I may, you mention your male being too straight in the front. I'm curious, what makes you feel that way and what went into your decision? Was it because he is straight compared to what you see in the Ring? Was it because he didn't move well when running in the field? Did he "hobby horse" or "ground pound", or was he smooth and fluid? This goes back to my earlier mention of the difficulty being WHO is determining what is proper/efficient conformation and structure. I think we both are familiar with the fact that no one on the gsp-l can agree to what is proper layback of the front shoulders and the feeling we have a serious problem with layback within the Breed. Many will quote experts that say a dog should have "X" angle and "Y" layback, but I feel IMO, true proper conformation and layback of the front is much easier determined not in the Ring by Judges that have an eye for "certain" characteristics/gaits, but rather by watching the dogs movement in the field and how efficiently they move at various speeds of travel. This is not a knock on the Ring, but rather a question of where proper mechanics are best Judged and who should be suggesting what is proper motion.
I hope this makes sense. |
|
Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
|
|
|
briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
|
| 01/20/2011 8:28 PM |
|
I personally hope it just stays an idea Bev..
An idea like that could end up removing some of the best hunting dogs from the genepool if it were to come to a reality ..
|
|
My Pups:
|
|
|
Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
|
| 01/20/2011 8:38 PM |
|
Bruce - The most obvious indication of a straight front and a front too far forward is the placement of the front feet. In my boys case he was an easty westy (when standing his feet pointed out a bit). I held out making a decision to see if his chest would drop a bit and correct the problem as he grew up and it did to a degree, but not enough to suit me. The problem really shows up not when running on a relatively flat terrain like in TX, but when you are really in a mountainous terrain. He puts too much weight on the front assembly in that type of terrain and right now it shows up in problems with his feet mainly in the pads and in very specific spots on the pads. Additionally he is a bit long in the rear assembly and you can see this if you stack him and drop a plumb line down from the rear point on his buttocks to the ground. Ideally the line should hit the ground just at the tips of his toes. A dog that is long in the rear assembly will have an inch are more between the plumb line and the tops of the toes. Now because he is long in the rear he will appear nicely balanced and when he runs he looks amazing. The problem is his structure is not right and eventually he could run into injury problems. I will still compete with him in hunting and obedience, but will watch very carefully for any issues/injuries that may crop up because of the structure. However, I believe that it would be absolutely wrong for me to breed him with these issues, especially when there are other dogs out there to breed to without these issues.
I learned the hard way with my girl, Belle. She is short in the front and rear and has real problems jumping in the front assembly due entirely to her structure. She is a beautiful dog and smarter than any I have trained ever, but she could not hold up to the pounding on her front assembly. I pulled her out of performance events at age 4 and she is now a wonderful therapy dog and injury free. My hope is she will live a happy and healthy life and remain injury free.
The ideal structure is shown very easily in most dogs by a little geometry. You should be able to draw a line from the shoulders along the topline and have a straight line with the neck and head falling above the line. Then drop a line from the top of the shoulders (the withers) down the front leg to the ground (the lines should be straight) and another from the rear hip points down. The back line should hit as I said at the tips of the toes. The overall should be a nice proportional square or close to a square. (If you look at our standard if even alludes to this structure in the description.) Additionally, the angle in the front shoulder should be a 45 degree angle. There is more too it than that, but what I described is a very easy visual for evaluating just about any dog for structure. When the rear or the front are off you will see issues, but those can be hidden if the rear and shoulders are both equally off. Also, if you move the dog at a faster gait than the trot you often cannot see the structural issues and the dogs will move beautifully. There are many dogs out there that are not structurally right and still winning in various venues. So as a breeder my standard is much tougher than the show ring or the field. I am striving to get that structure as close to the ideal as I can for two reasons 1) the betterment of the breed, and 2) the dog will have fewer injuries in performance events and have a healthier and happier life.
So here are some pictures I scanned in that illustrate the basics of what you look for in structure.
The topline:
Of course you also have to worry about Ewe neck and other things, but this simple evaluation will eliminate allot.
The front angulation with a 45% angle:
And here you still need to look at whether or not the front is too far forward and depth of chest, but again a start.
I didn't scan the front assembly with the line dropped, but it will show high shoulders or a front assembly too far forward.
Rear angulation:
Still need to look at the hocks and elbows and proportion etc, but again a start.
And finally the rear assembly.
Again, these are only starting points, but they surely eliminate quickly poor structure anywhere with a really simple visual exam. If a dog fails this simple test, then there are issues and the dog should not be put up in the show ring. Are they? Yes because 1) judges do not all study structure, and 2) handlers are very good about hiding these issues.
I believe that it is the handler and breeder's job is to evaluate and choose not to put a dog in the ring that is not structurally sound. Unfortunately, allot of folks breed themselves into a corner and feel they have no choice, or are blind to their own dogs issues, and get caught up in the winning ant any cost game. The result is the breeds suffer.
|
|
Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 01/21/2011 6:00 AM |
|
It's encouraging to hear some want a breeding standard for the GSP. It can only bring the GSP together and stronger.
In the DKV and VDD there is a breeding standard. There is not just one dog produced within these clubs - there is no cookie-cutter dog. The breeders have a lot of freedom.
You will rarely see a conformation rating under SG (very good) and rarely have a dog that is not capable of the tasks it was bred for. These are clubs where there is a common goal.
This keeps the breed within the parameters of the standard.
I don't believe a JH would be enough to prove hunting ability -there would have to be an age limitation and number of attempts would need to be limited,too. I would like to see a water and retrieving test added to the requirements. I don't know if obtaining a CH is necessary. Having been evaluated with correct conformation is all a dog really needs.
This limits going to show after show and picking judges and other entrants. You go once, the dog is evaulated - (you can get as many evaluations as you like) and it's done. The dog is either structually correct or not. In the German system people strive for the V but at times an SG is better. It has to do with genotype more than phenotype.
I often wonder why people don't want a breeding standard. A breeding standard would cut the breeding pool by almost 3/4? Maybe my numbers are high.
In the ring dogs are usually over angulated and there is good reason for this. They look fantastic at a trot (and can't get into a gallop- their structure can't support the lowering). Underangulated dogs look terrible at a trot but fantastic at a gollap.They can get low.
Interesting proposition and I look forward to seeing what happens in the next 10 years. |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
|
| 01/21/2011 6:35 AM |
|
A breeding standard would cut the breeding pool by almost 3/4
Thats why many wouldnt want a breeding standard , and who would make up this breeding standard ? Show people? Hunters ? Field trial people ?
whichever group it was you can bet their dogs would easly fit into the 1/4 left in the breeding pool ..
anyone that wants that type of system why change the AKC to it just go to the DKV they already have that system in place for this breed..Their is also a similar sytem in place that isnt a forced system but optional called the NAHVDA ..So there are several options if you enjoy this type of sytem available ..
plus it would probably limit many from breeding , i personally use almost all my vacation time from work hunting, I really dont have enough time off work to go chasing all over the states doing hunt tests and conformation tests ,and do what this breed was meant to do HUNT , I imagine many others would be in the same boat ..
So ya end up picking and choosing carefully how to use your time off work... |
|
My Pups:
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 01/21/2011 7:53 AM |
|
NAVHDA is a registry. Not a breeding club.
What is the issue with limiting who breeds? Is keeping the gene pool large any benefit to the breed?Or just individual's pockets?
Why can't show dogs hunt and be structurally correct, why can't ft dogs have "run" and be structually correct, why can't the 'entire' breed be conformationally correct with innate ability,what is wrong with every GSP breeder being on the same page? Unless of course,
ft dogs can not be structually correct to perform at high levels of 'run' and style and show dogs can not be correctly angulated and have innat ability.
I don't know, but there is a reason for a split and IMO, there is probably strong arguements for both.
"Forcing" people to unite and conform to correct guidelines can only improve a breed.Who would be those who decide? It really doesn't matter all that much. They would be required to follow a conformation standard with a foundation in structure and the hunting requirements would be based on 2 criteria - those who enjoy FTs and those who enjoy foot hunting(HTs). There doesn't need to be a split between HTs and FTs. This would affect many people as well as dogs. but, the overall results affect the breed positively.
|
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
|
| 01/21/2011 7:56 AM |
|
plus it would probably limit many from breeding , i personally use almost all my vacation time from work hunting, I really dont have enough time off work to go chasing all over the states doing hunt tests and conformation tests ,and do what this breed was meant to do HUNT , I imagine many others would be in the same boat ..
I'm not sure what you mean by this?
Are you saying b/c you don't have time you should not have to be required to prove your dogs and their breeding genetics and be allowed to breed b/c your evaluation and your friends and aquaintences agree your dogs are breeding quality?
Hardly a way to improve a breed. |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
You must be logged in to use this module.
|