Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:732
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| 01/19/2011 7:32 PM |
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Thanx Kindly Bev ;-) Much appreciated and hopefully working for all!
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/19/2011 8:25 PM |
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Sorry for making ya go through the work of splitting the topic Bruce but thanks it is a good topic...
As for " Run" Dogs that are said to have "run" look exactly like that they are Running full out running ..
Not jogging not trotting not fast pacing ...
So to say show dogs are bred for run wouldnt be correct at least probably for the most of them the correct gait has nothing to do with run ...
"Run" has to do with the dog gives the appearance it is going its max speed all the time it is hunting or in the feild ...
is a show dog or any dog running the whole time its in the field yes, but many wont give the appearance they are going at their max speed all the time or 99.98 % of the time its on the ground..
a dog with "run" has a style of running that makes it looks as it is going its max speed at almost all times , this style of running also is a very very quick dog.
look at humans when they sprint they are at a hard full bore run if they did this every time they hit a field they would be said to have "run"
a Human going for a jog looks different as his or her pace is not as fast as a sprint . This Human would be said to not have "run"
A Human who jogs then sprints on occasion also would be said to not have "run"
a dog with "run" is Sprinting the entire time or gives the appearance of a sprint compared to a dog without "run" who only sprints on occassion
So do show people need to breed for a dog with "run" No there is no need for a dog to sprint at full speed all the time in a show ring.. Do some people breed for this and have show dogs yes ..
But it is the style of the running of the dog if the dog has "run" or not .. Does it appear it its going full bore running at its max speed all the time on the ground.. or not if it does not then it does not have "run"
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7922
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| 01/19/2011 9:18 PM |
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| Briar we will have to agree to disagree. As I believe the gait whether talking trot, gallop or run is an innate quality meaning it is bred into a dog. A dog with "run" is a good moving dog by anyones definition. When we judge in the show ring we are judging (or supposed to be judging movement). If it were possible we would judge the movement at a gallop or run, but that is not possible for two reasons 1) the ring is too small and 2) it is near impossible for most people to see the detail of the movement of a dog at a gallop or run. Therefore, we judge at a trot. Just because we do not judge a dog at a faster gait though does not mean they do not have run or we do not need to breed for run. The "run" is indicative of a dog with good conformation and movement. A poorly bred dog (a dog with poor conformation) cannot achieve the style you term "run." This truly is a physiology discussion and I would encourage you to look at the book by Gilbert & Brown on K9 Structure. There is also nothing prettier than a nice moving dog whether they are in the ring or in the field and when you see them you know immediately they have it whether you call it "run" or something else. And yes, I have seen dogs that have "run" in the field. I take some of my dogs to one of the best trainers in TX and he and I have taken some of his best dogs out (both young and up and coming prospects and older experienced dogs) and watched them work and they have "run." The next time you see a dog with "run" put your hands on that dog and also take a good long look at the angles. I will bet that you will find a nicely put together dog that has very good structure too. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:732
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| 01/19/2011 9:38 PM |
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Does this horse "LOOK" like it is going full tilt?
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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snips
n.ga.
MH
Posts:413
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| 01/19/2011 9:43 PM |
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| Looks like they are working real hard to go no where! How do they get the tails to curl? |
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brenda |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:732
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| 01/19/2011 9:44 PM |
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How bout this one?
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/19/2011 9:48 PM |
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Cool video Bruce  |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:732
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| 01/19/2011 9:51 PM |
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What do these have to do with run? EVERYTHING! Mechanics of motion that can be seen. Just because an animal "LOOKS" like it is running full tilt, doesn't mean it is covering ground with speed, nor does it mean they are doing so efficiently. A dog can run it's a$$ off and be a ground pounder with poor conformation that will beat his joints so badly, he will have neither longevity for a day, or for a lifetime. However, a dog can get in a smooth gait and cover ground much faster than is realized and look like they are going nowhere. They may look so smooth, as to be able to "run" with a cup of water on their back. Run has very little to do with how they appear to be moving. Conformation however, has everything to do with how they run and the difficulty lies in what is a proper conformation, depending on which side of the fence you are on.....
Personally, for my money, I think Blake's description is excellent.
I'd like to give some more thoughts on this, but it is way past bedtime and I will have to save it for tomorrow. G'night ya'll ;-)
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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RyanGSP
MH
Posts:446
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| 01/19/2011 9:59 PM |
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| Tagging along on this. |
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tc
MH
Posts:117
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| 01/19/2011 10:32 PM |
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Posted By briarpatch on 01/19/2011 5:39 PM
Oh and I would like to thank the moderators for allowing us to continue and being so far off topic without locking the thread or bouncing anyone for getting a bit passionate at times , its been a good and informative discussion overall even with the bit of humor and passion thrown in once in awhile from many ...
Thanks
 It's been hard . . .
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
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Posts:7922
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briarpatch
N.J.
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Posts:168
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| 01/20/2011 4:26 AM |
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pixie I never said they had bad conformation , do most look like most show dogs NO...
its like a Miss America Pageant Contestant , can they all swim MAYBE they even have a swimsuite compition , do they look like swimmers , somewhat
do they all swim like olympic atheletes NO |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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| 01/20/2011 5:07 AM |
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| Just because they wear the suite of a swimmer it isnt exactly the same suite that the olympic atheletes wear and it doesnt make them a swimmer nor does it make them an olympic athlete that could compete in a olympic swimming event........ |
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pixie bee
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Posts:4474
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| 01/20/2011 5:18 AM |
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I agree with trueblu's definition of run, it defines is a properly bred hunting dog with style,nose and intelligence.
Of the 3 definitions, briarpatche's,trueblu's and mine - none mention conformation.
A young dog,under 3 y.o.,can run for hours w/o any issues,whether they are conformationally correct or not. Some dogs are so exuberant and active (and seemingly dumb)they just go.
Does a dog need good conformation to have "run".According to the definitions- NO. But, if a dog is going to run at 10 -14 mph for 6+ hours they would need to be conformationally
correct.
I am not clear on what run is. I have come to my own conclusion, but this may not be "run".
Is "run" speed?
Is "run" speed,distance and style?
Is "run" speed,distance,style along with correct conformation,innate ability and intelligence?
Is "run" correct conformation and style?
Trueblu has given contradictory definitions and I am not clear. First he gives a definition I agree with, then he says his dogs have "run" and hunt at 10- 14 mph all day. This doesn't describe his definition, but the definition briarpatch and I posted.
In order to run that fast all day you need a vast amount of land,a horse or motor vehicle,a GPS and a dog who is built fairly conformationally correct and if the dog is hunting it needs nose,intelligence and cooperation.
Then Bruce joins in and says "run" is conformation and stlye and how the animal is truely performing beyond what it "looks" like it is doing,requireing a good eye and knowledge.(did I get that correct?)
I agree with this.
Another question: if this is what "run" is then why is it a term that applies to FT dogs only and why would other breeders not breeding for "run"?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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briarpatch
N.J.
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Posts:168
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| 01/20/2011 6:08 AM |
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of the options you gave pixie I would say "run" is speed style ..
if you add in distance then it would be said to be a dog with "a lot of run"
a dog can have "run" and be a fairly close working dog a dog with a "lot
of run" would be more of the discription you gave earlier
the dog you discribed under 3 could be said to have "run" then when older could be a "porch sweeper" it isnt conformationally correct to keep its "run" when older |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4474
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| 01/20/2011 6:47 AM |
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briarpatch,
with your posts there can be another option -
what gives "run"
can 'run' be drive and desire to find game? What drives a dog to keep speeds of 10 -14 mph?
Take 3 well bred, conformationally correct dogs: ft bred,show bred, and a DK.
Will they all have "run" - according to some definitions YES - according to yours, the one I posted from my source and the 2nd one trueblu posted- NO.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
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Posts:446
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| 01/20/2011 7:49 AM |
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| Genetics makes him run for 6+ hours at 10-14mph. You can have all the conformation in the world if the dog doesnt have the genetics to run at those speeds he isnt going to do it. Same with range. |
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trueblushorthairs
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Posts:129
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| 01/20/2011 7:57 AM |
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Pixie, why do you feel the need to quote people and completely butcher what they have said. I did not say, that my dogs can run at 10-14 mph all day! What I said was, "Run is an issue because in areas that require dogs to run at a speed of 10-14 mph for hours on end to cover the ground that must be covered VERSUS the person who hunts 25 acre plots...". HOURS are defined as multiple time periods of 60 minutes. I hunt my dogs 2-3 hours a day typically and yes, they can go that hard for 2 plus hours, NOT all day. There isn't a dog anywhere that can run at that speed for 6 plus hours in a day muchless ALL day. So, please don't paraphrase comments, at least have the courtesy of quoting what people say.
I did NOT contradict myself in any way.
Further, I don't guess I understand why you say you are no closer to a definition of run than you were pages ago, when you posted at 6:51pm last night, my definition and then you have one of the Smith boys quote. Now, I assume your quote from Team Huntsmith was from Delmar or one of the boys. If the definition comes from someone who took a seminar then I can't give much credence to it until I know their background in horseback trials.
What I will say about the topic of run though, so many trialers are so hung up on run, their definition seems to be: a dog's ability to cover a tremendous amount of ground and distance at top speed, they forget that run without HUNTING is worth SQUAT!! I have quoted one thing John Rabidou has said to me over and over again, and it all boils down to one word "HUNTING". So, when I judge any event, whether a trial or hunting test, the dog, as Mr. Rabidou has said, "had better be HUNTING every step". As breeders we had better not forget that one word, HUNTING!! |
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