Had a question for you guys.  I’ve got a dog I’m looking at developing as a stud dog if all works out.  I know all the standard stuff; trialing, health testing, etc but was looking for more specifics.  My only concern really is evaluating him for my own use in the future.  At this point it looks like I’d like to develop a line using him but time will tell. I have a close working relationship with the breeder who is very helpful but was looking for the opinion of some Americans as I’ll be exporting him to the US when I move back.  He will be 6.5 years old at that point so I imagine there’s a lot that needs to be done before then. 

He is currently 2.5 years old and is primarily a hunting dog.  I am showing him even though I’ve never handled a show dog before and he is 3 points short of his title.  He’s had his hips and elbows scored with near perfect scores and had his eyes cleared.

He recently started trialing as well and took second in his first pigeon trial, got best continental in his first wild game trial and won his second one. He’s running in North Island championships in two weeks and the national championships the week after. All trials here are all breed trials so he’s running against the pointers and setters. He’s also going to be starting retriever trialing though GSPs aren’t eligible for championship trials or titles.  He’s done his NA test with the NZVHDTA with a near perfect score.

He’s out of a line that’s been going for quite a while and is very consistent.  Breeders that had the line behind his line say he is a good example their old dogs.  

Really I’m wondering what else I need to look at when evaluating him as a stud.  I’m extremely happy with him as a dog and would gladly just have clones of him for the rest of my life but I know that isn’t how it works.  What do you guys suggest.  I’ve read through everything I can get my hands on but good books aren’t readily available here. Any suggestions for reliable online material?

Also, how is the perception of NZ/Aussie bred dogs in the US?

What Registry is he Registered with? German/DK Breeding up close? Can you share his Pedigree? You might have to host his Pedigree through a free Pedigree Host Site such as: http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/

to share it.

This is going to be just a gross generalization of American opinion, but often, Shorthairs with DK/German Breeding up close are considered to be plodders and sharp. Not saying it's a good or bad view, just a general view from a large portion of the American Shorthair world. That said, there is a market for such dogs and it will really depend on your INDIVIDUAL Shorthair, as to how/where best to market your Stud.

As example, if the dog is a strong Versatile that can Track exceedingly well on old and fresh tracks of feather and fur; Point Steady to Wing, Shot and Fall; Retrieve exceedingly well from land and water, including a Duck Search; has a close working range; then it might be best to pursue a NAVHDA UT/VC Title and market to the hunter that desires that style of dog. As an alternative to NAVHDA for the above style of Shorthair and if appropriately Registered, NADKC may be another route to follow back here in the States.

On the other side of the coin, you might have a Shorthair that is bigger running and may be suited to American Field Trials, which I believe you will find to be vastly different from what you may know as a Field Trial in NZ.

It will all depend on what and how your INDIVIDUAL dog excels in the end.

That said, while Titles that come over with your dog may be respected, I think you will find that you will still want to Compete/Test back here in our venues, not only to prove your dogs worth here, but also to get him out there and seen by the very people you will hope to market him to here.

As for evaluating him, I personally want the entire package in a Shorthair I plan to use in a Breeding program. Health is of absolute importance obviously, but I'm also looking for a dog that is BIDDABLE and will try it's best to do as I ask of it EVERY TIME I ask; a dog that has BRAINS to figure out how to handle the game I'm pursuing, to figure out how to effectively hunt the cover we're in, to figure out what to do with/about the scent it's nose has detected; has a NOSE that is capable of scenting game from distance, the further the better; has the STRUCTURE to insure longevity on the hunt and through their lifetime without "breaking down"; has the PERSONALITY and DISPOSITION to be the dog I ALWAYS want to have around me and with me and has the ABILITY to put all of these pieces of the puzzle together in a harmony that every time I take the dog out in the field, the yard, in public or just sitting on the couch; they make me smile.

Ask yourself this...
 

"Can I buy a better dog than this one? If not, by breeding him what am I doing to help the breed?"

I don't know what "perception" of the NZ/Aussie dogs would be in this country really since the number of NZ/Aussie imports to the US would be I think miniscule so very few of us have ever even seen one.

It certainly sounds as though he's a quality dog, but we have a lot of quality dogs here and trying to get people to breed to your dog will be a chore unless he shows well in the venues we have here.

Unless your dog can achieve a VC, FC, or MH you will most likely find very few people here willing to breed to it.  Honestly unless the dog is a national champion you probably will not find more than a handful of serious breeders willing to breed to him.

This is going to be just a gross generalization of American opinion, but often, Shorthairs with DK/German Breeding up close are considered to be plodders and sharp. Not saying it's a good or bad view, just a general view from a large portion of the American Shorthair world. That said, there is a market for such dogs and it will really depend on your INDIVIDUAL Shorthair, as to how/where best to market your Stud.

I don't know that there is a market for a plodder.Unless, by 'plodder' you mean a foot hunters (non horseback) dog.You say 'sharp' as tho it's a bad thing. In order for the breed to correctly perform (a part) its original purpose sharpness will need to be present. Sharpness on game, only. Instead of good or bad how about correct and incorrect? The generalization you are stating would imply that all American GSPs are fast and non-sharp. Not only is this incorrect,but if it were it would narrow the market for those willing to hunt with such a dog and would make a versatile bred dog more desirable for the foot hunter.

Go to any DK test and it will be the quietest test you have ever attended.Barking,whining,crying,etc is a temperment issue and not accepted in the DK standard.

As for evaluating your male as a stud -

in my opinion, you are missing several key components.

1) are you kennel blind - this affects most everyone

2) what are his weaknesses and strengths - how easily did he train, how much pressure did you need to apply and can/does he handle pressures well - has he competed in higher level testing

3) what makes him breedable - what good/bad  traits will he pass

4) dogs don't pass along training, they pass along ability

5) you didn't mention hunting him - training and passing tests are NOT equal to hunting. IMHO, the only true way of evaluating intelligence and know how in a dog hunting breed is to take them hunting. Now, if the owner is not a hunter,has not seen quite a few dogs hunt then this evaluation can be pointless.

Decide what crowd you will cater to. And place your efforts there.

Best of luck to you, he looks like a handsome boy,

Francine

as a side not, you may want to contact and speak to Margaret Cotton. She has been to America a few times and has seen both American GSPs and DKs work.

I think I may have not been clear in my original post or you guys have misinterpreted it.

I'm not concerned with marketing him as a stud dog. I'm concerned with how I can evaluate how effective he will be for my own purposes.  Also I'm wondering what other health tests I can do besides hips/elbows/eyes.

I'm running out of battery so I'll respond later. Thanks for your input.

PS, I'm American and have run dogs in NAVHDA, FTs, HTs etc in the states. I am just living here for a few years.

Are your own purposes to start your own line and how to effectivly market this line?
I believe my post tackles any evaluation you will need to make in using him as a foundation stud for your line.

As of now you can only judge what you can see, you have no idea what he will produce. Choosing quality bitches that pair nicely is no easy task. Since you will have to most likely purchase your bitches you may find that you will go through many before you find the one that pairs with him. It is much easier to own bitches and search for studs,IMO.If you pair him solely on a line breeding premise you may be disappointed.

I have 2 boys who I plan on using as my foundation studs and finding the right girls to pair with them is now on it's 3rd year.Hopfully 2011 brings me my first girl.

 Haha yeah I know her. How did you meet her?

Thanks, what's CD?

Bruce,

my response was to dismantle the gross over generailzations that the American GSP world may have.  It is evendent that you, on some level, believe the generalizations. I'm sure you don't have any doubts about the GSP.

After reading my posts over the years I can't imagine anyone believing I would be passionatly involved and dedicated to a breed that would be anything but near perfect.

Anyway.....

RCNZ,

you are happy with his conformation and his ability as a hunter.  In your opinion he is as breedable as breedable can be. I say you are set with your foundation stud, now the hunt for bitches.

In choosing  bitches you can go 2 ways, an outcross or line breeding. Since you will most likely buy your bitches you need to decide if he pairs better within his line or in outcrosses.Personally, if a dog pairs better with outcrosses it tells me there are many issues within the line and I would want to stay away from that line.

Pixie bee- line breeding would be lovely but I already have two dogs to export (assuming my weim lives that long) to the states and exporting isn't exactly cheap. As such I'll likely only be able to take him home with me.  My thought was to take him and find a nice line in the states to use as the other half of the equation that compliments him well.

The idea would be to do an outcross then breed back to the US line, him and AI from other dogs in his line here where appropriate.

If the only way to produce good dogs is by only ever line breeding then there would only be one breed of dog in the world.

Again this is all theoretical considering I haven't even decided yet.

MOOSE1- I don't have much experience with breeding GSPs but I have a background in genetics/animal husbandry.

I would say that the situation you describe is the result of genetic metabolic faults. The relatively minor effects of a faulty gene in a heterozygous specimen (assuming incomplete dominance) would be difficult to detect or in complete dominance, impossible to detect but once made homozygous by linebreeding would manifest as undersized dogs.

I would put my money on a fault in a gene controlling cGH production (or one of the related hormones), secretion or receptors meaning that it is a minor form of dwarfism. It'd be interesting to see a proper lab workup of hormone levels in dogs like you describe.

I may be putting words in Pixie bee's mouth but what I took that statement to mean is that if a dog is bred back to it's line and things go pear shaped then it means there are recessive problems in the line. By contrast, outcrossing that dog still wouldn't produce the same quality as a good linebreeding but would be better than a bad line breeding since the recessive crap would remain hidden.

This an article that everyone interested in breeding should be aware of. It is a wonderful premise to begin deciding on how to breed.There are several more indepth books to read.It is my opinion that the chips will fall where they may and we can only make the best guesstimates we can. A breeder's best friend is a good eye. It is my thought that producing a line of dogs is better than poducing dogs.

http://www.nylana.org/RRACI/brackett.htm

It is difficult to produce shorthairs that won't search and point.Temperment is a little trickier and I notice most owners tend to forgive,make excuses and rationalize their dog's behaviors. Big mistake, if you ask me. Especially in a breeding program. If things are going to go south, the quickest area is conformation. Responsible breeders will check for bite issue but how many know the number of teeth that ought to be there and when some are missing that it's a breeding fault and that dog is not breedable? Kinda hard to scrap a good dog for 1 missing tooth. No dog is perfect but I would sooner breed a dog with a shortcoming than a mouth issue.

Breeding is always a work in progress.

Linbreeding is much more work than outcrossing. Linebreeding will produce a much better dog - providing top specimens are used. While this may be true of any breeding - it is especially necessary for linebreeding.Using outcrossed dogs who are linebred themselves will show good results as well, but then the breeder needs to know those lines and their faults. The true test of a dog's worth is in what they produce.

No breeder should rely solely on their opinion of their dog. Qualified individuals are needed to evaluate over a period of years.

These are my opinions and certainly no one has to agree.