Diamond
Southwestern Ontario
MH
Posts:349
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| 01/04/2008 2:07 PM |
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Can someone explain to me a little about the concept of inbreeding? I know some breeders do it and others won't at all and some only very rarely. Even if both dogs in question are good dogs is there still risk genetic problems farther down? Thanks alot |
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 01/05/2008 5:16 AM |
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| Very few breeder of gs's use inbreeding (father to daughter,mother to son, brother to sister) a lot use linebreeding. If done correctly it is a great tool, but when done by someone who is kennel blind it will be a disaster. Overal the gs isn't a breed with a ton of freaky genetic problems, if the parents are checked for anything you are afraid of and are clear, yes it can happen, but I worry more about the working end, do they back and retrieve, do they love water, do they want to hunt with me and for me, those are the genetic problems I worry about. |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 01/05/2008 7:32 PM |
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I still have mixed feelings about linebreeding. To me I still see it as an inbreed. I know dogs are not human but I think a "grandfalther' breeding a "granddaugther" is still too close for my liking. I do have a nice linebred female but none of my males are even closley related to her. I don't plan on linebreeding but I also look at my dogs as my kids. If it isn't good for my kid then it isn't good for my dog kids  . Very many nice dogs have come from good linebreeding though. I think whether to linebreed or not is a personal prefrence of the breeder. |
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markj
Posts:17
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| 01/08/2008 3:21 PM |
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Linebreeding can get rid of unwanted traits it is used in cattle and other animal rearing operations. People wouldnt be so messed up physically if we linebred or at least bred to improve us instead of all do whatever
I see a lot of sire to dam sire to dam offspring of each liter to each other, gets things back where they should be. Not for everyone, takes a breeder with a keen eye for problems and what works. Was common in days of old, not so much now, folks are not as knowledgeable and no one culls like old days, no folks want to sell each and every pup. Seen one resucitated. It was born dead for a reason or dam killed it for a reason... Cant be a softy and a breeder. Watch the old movies, wasnt that pig going to the axe due to a runt? |
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markj
Posts:17
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| 01/08/2008 3:23 PM |
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http://www.dailypost.com/~santee/linebreeding.htm
http://www.rhiannon-cavaliers.com/linebreeding.htm
http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm |
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tchrisman
Shapleigh, ME
MH
Posts:108
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| 05/27/2008 9:47 AM |
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http://www.dogstuff.info/of_peas_and_pups.html
This is something everyone should read, as well as http://www.amazon.com/Control-Canine-Genetic-Diseases-Reference/dp/0876050046
Outcrossing just plows problems under to grow in the next generation. |
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Marshfield Kennel German Shorthaired Pointers |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 05/28/2008 7:25 AM |
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In/linebreeding means nothing if the breeder did not do their homework.
Don't be impressed with the method, be impressed with the dogs in the pedigree and make sure these dogs are worth breeding and know what they pass along, the good, the bad and the ugly.
Sometimes a total outcross can be a better method.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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tchrisman
Shapleigh, ME
MH
Posts:108
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| 05/28/2008 10:19 AM |
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Selection is the key to any breeding method. When someone says a breed is "too inbred" or "over bred" what the real problem is the mates have been under-selected. The supposedly inbred breeds are usually the most outcrossed. The problem I have is with breeders who will not consider a line breeding or inbreeding.
Sometimes the best mating is an outcross, but sometimes the best is a close relative. Breeders who can't see that or won't do it are passing on their best choice for something else. It's either out of fear they will dredge all their problems to the surface, or human morals applied to animal husbandry.
Look at some of the best kennels that every existed to see how they did it. You can read the pedigrees and see the thought process. Linebreeding brings the most consistent results over generations due to the prepoetency that is built by doing so. Consistently good or consistently bad is a matter of selection.
Then look at an out-crossed dog like Hustler and see what happened breeding on him in the second, third and fourth generations.
I think if you are a dog buyer, you need to figure out if your breeder knows about all the tools at his or her disposal, and if he has a plan to use them.
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Marshfield Kennel German Shorthaired Pointers |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 05/28/2008 2:46 PM |
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In/linebreeding is a commitment. Some breeders who follow this method do not realize this. The best results will come after several generations, not in the first or second generation. To see a breeder do 1 breeding and not continue tells me they either have no idea what the next step ought to be,don't care or the litter was so bad they became discouraged. The kennels that continue in/linebreeding in every litter tells me they are on to something and are aware of what needs to be worked out of the line and kept in.
Breeding,any type of breeding, needs to have a plan not a shot at a 1 time wonder.
Next time you speak with a breeder, ask what their next step is in their program and why.
I know I am especially interested in why some breeders do repeat breedings, sometimes 3.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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tchrisman
Shapleigh, ME
MH
Posts:108
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| 05/28/2008 3:30 PM |
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Two reasons folks repeat a breeding. First is they have folks who want those pups. It's a fact of life that if you want breed dogs, you have to sell pups. Knowing you have several spoken for makes it easier to take the risk and spend the money on breeding.
The second is a little more interesting. Some breeders will throw two dogs together and sell all the pups. Their intention is to not saddle themselves with one if they come out poorly. If they get a good result, they repeat and keep their girl.
I guess the third is dad is at hand and cheap for a stud fee. Like in the house, or buddy's dog.
I usually have studs in mind for the offspring of a litter, before the first litter is consumated. If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. |
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Marshfield Kennel German Shorthaired Pointers |
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Friedelsheim
Maryland
JH
Posts:36
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| 05/28/2008 8:25 PM |
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Posted By tchrisman on 05/28/2008 10:19 AM
Then look at an out-crossed dog like Hustler and see what happened breeding on him in the second, third and fourth generations.
Todd,
Not sure what you meant by this????
Please explain yourself.
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Friedelsheim GSPs
Home of VC Sundance Revelation MH CGC |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/28/2008 9:10 PM |
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Posted By Friedelsheim on 05/28/2008 8:25 PM
Posted By tchrisman on 05/28/2008 10:19 AM
Then look at an out-crossed dog like Hustler and see what happened breeding on him in the second, third and fourth generations.
Todd,
Not sure what you meant by this????
Please explain yourself.
Caught my attention as well and I'm not quite sure I understand either??? |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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tchrisman
Shapleigh, ME
MH
Posts:108
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| 05/29/2008 11:15 AM |
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Hustler's COI was low. I don't have it in front of me but around 2%. Way lower than normal for any pure-bred dog. He was a "nicked" dog, better than either parent, but carrying his parent's faults on ressesive genes.
Then look at his offspring, they were pretty nice. Lots of titles on those dogs, but you'd expect that. He had a mess of puppies and many of the folks who bought them were above average owners.
The only successful line breeding on Hustler that I'm aware of was at Stradivarius kennel, and they don't appear trying to continue that line. Other breeders here in Maine who bred on Hustler had bad reuslts in subsequent generations.
A dog with Hustler's titles, and with Hustler's champion offspring should have kennels divoted to carrying on his genes. But because of his lack fo prepotency, the whole thing fizzled.
Show me someone who's been successful, and I will gladly admit that I'm wrong, but I can't find anyone trying to line up on Hustler. Everybody has a little Hustler in their dogs, I want to see pedigrees with a lot of it. |
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Marshfield Kennel German Shorthaired Pointers |
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Friedelsheim
Maryland
JH
Posts:36
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| 05/29/2008 1:57 PM |
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I really tend to disagree with all this but then again we all have our own opinions. Yes Hustler IC was 2%. If I was a betting man, I’d venture to say that over 50% of the GSPs in the US have an IC around or lower than 2%. The only folks producing dogs with high IC are dedicated breeders that understand linebreeding and I can promise that back yard breeders are not considering an IC when making a breeding decision.
The Hustler x Wendy mating was repeated a few times and many good dogs were produced out of that breeding combination. In my opinion that combination laid the foundation as to what is behind many of the great Hustler dogs of today.
If you look closely at linebred Hustler offspring they are still doing well in many forms of competition. It’s hasn’t fizzled.
There are a lot of successful folks that are breeding linebred Hustler dogs. Westwind GSPs has heavy Hustler dogs.
VC Jacob vd Westwind MH (double bred Hustler grandson) was the 2003 Hunt Test sire of the year.
My personal dog, VC Sundance Revelation MH CGC, has Hustler 6 times in his pedigree.
DC AFC 3x NSTRA CH Gamble’s Odyssey Fritz MH has solid Hustler foundation behind him and he is also a 4th generation DC. Pretty darn impressive. |
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Friedelsheim GSPs
Home of VC Sundance Revelation MH CGC |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 05/29/2008 9:17 PM |
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I'd have to agree 100% Donnie.
As you mention, Gary Hutchinson(Westwind) is probably the most well known for Linebreeding on Hustler and it would be hard to argue, doing quite well with it.
You pretty well covered Odyssey and Walnut Hills with Fritz, but both Kennels have other dogs that have a lot of Hustler in them and some more than others, including at Walnut Hills, a 10X NSTRA CH son of Hustler who is still a kid at heart at 16.
Steve Ries at Top Gun breeds on Hustler a good bit. His Jake was the Top producing GSPCA Sire in 2006 and has Hustler 4 times in 5 Gen. FC, MH and UT.
When it comes down to it though, Hustler will go by the way as so many dogs before him and will be replaced by the next generation of Greats, but you'll likely find his name many times back in those next Greats Ped's. His blood will have just become too thin to really say we are any longer Linebreeding on him. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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tchrisman
Shapleigh, ME
MH
Posts:108
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caroline_mae
Clemson, SC
MH
Posts:102
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| 11/26/2008 2:41 PM |
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I'm in a Genetics class currently and asked my professor about linebreeding because my two gsp puppies are both heavily linebred.
Linebreeding and Inbreeding do not cause genetic problems they only increase the chance of finding genetic problems.
As far as the outcome of linebreeding/inbreeding generally a genetic depression can occur where the performance lacks. The genetics are all there but for whatever reason the offspring do not perform at the same level as the parents. However if you crossbreed between two highly linebred/inbred lines you can create a safe well bred litter that will exhibit hybrid vigor. Which is the difference between the puppies over the parents. A good example is crossing a tiger and a lion the result is an offspring that is twice the size of its parents that is hybrid vigor.
So the best way to use linebreeding is a way to keep wanted genetics so it is always good to have at least one linebred/inbred litter to perserve the genetics. But it is also beneficial to go out and breed with another really good line preferrebly one that is highly linebred/inbred.
That is a short summary but don't be wary of linebreeding it is actually very responsible and as a buyer of puppies I will always look for pups who come from linebreeding because I will know exactly what I'm getting!
Hope that helps |
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briarpatch
N.J.
MH
Posts:168
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