I am about to whelp a litter in a couple of weeks and was wondering what people think about what comes through in a breeding.  I am about to whelp a litter from two line bred dogs.  The sire has an IC of around 15% and the dam around 22%.  I have heard people say that the dam has a higher impact on the outcome of the litter, i.e. from raising them for 8 weeks, carrying them in her belly, and just that the dams genes come through more.  I would like to hear what people think about that. 

Also conformation versus temperament.  Say a liver and roan female is bred to a liver and white male, will the roan pups look and act more like the dam and the liver and white ones look and act like the sire?  Any input/experience about this would be appreciated.  By the way the pups will have an IC at 1.5%

Matt

The puppies will get 50% genetic influence from each parent, there is no increased genetic influence from the DAM, that is a misnomer.  In fact, historically it was most often believed that the sire had more genetic influence and the DAM was just the incubator for the pups, this is also untrue.  As far as coat pattern inheritance vs. temperament inheritance, I don't believe these have ever been shown to be linked, but I will differ to a more experienced breeder on that question.

Matt,

I would consider your breeding to be an outcross on two linebred parents. With any litter, tightly linebred or an outcross, some of the puppies will favor the sire, some will favor the dam, and some will be throw backs to dogs in prior generations in appearance and performance. 

I have my own theories, yes theories on breeding but if you want to reproduce a certain dog I believe you need to line breed on the mother line. It's all about a consistent group of X Chromosomes in my opinion. If you want "consistency " in litter after litter in both performance and type having a solid mother line will do this.

Coat color is a genetic marker so it should not have anything to do with temperament.

One of these days dog breeding will go high tech. The technology is already out there to do genetic knockouts in the DNA to reproduce certain desired and undesired traits in bovine species. DNA is DNA and once the GSP breed has been DNA Sequenced to indentify all the genetic markers anything is possible.

Francine,

I would respond to your question and ask is there a IC % to high? I think the answer to this question would be NO.

As long as a breeder is maintaining health while achieving the desired reasoning for a such high IC % does it matter.

From a stud dog perspective wouldn't it be nice to have a dog with a very high IC that could be super potent in his progeny. The Germans have been doing it for years.

Some dogs in the Hege-Haus line topped 40%.  I tend to think that a US breeding with a IC at 40% would draw some negative attention. Thoughts???

Here is part of the report for Higgins/Trego litter

HIGGINS X TREGO LITTER     Born:   Reg.#   10 Gen IC: 1.54535% Bred by:   Owned by:

Parents Grand-Parents 3rd Generation 4th Generation 5th Generation JAEGERHOF'S SIR HENRY HIGGINS MH, LVR & WHT PTCH TKD, SN 56509/09, IC= 15.52857   CH JAEGERHOF'S BARON VON WENDIG MH, Liver Wht Ptch Tkd, IC= 1.11665   DC-AFC STRADIVARIUS BAROUQUE, LIVER ROAN, SF 186324   DC HILLHAVEN'S HUSTLER, LVR TKD, SC 706342   HILLHAVEN HANDSOME,   HILLHAVEN MARK V'S MANDY,   WENDY V ENZSTRAND,   DC-AFC ESSER'S DUKE VD WILDBURG,   JUTTA V BUGELHOF,   EVRIDIKI VON HAINHOLZ UD SH, Liver & White Tkd,   FC-AFC LOUIS V HAINHOLZ, LIVER & WHITE TKD, SD 299728   FC-AFC DUTCH V HAINHOLZ,   BONNIE BLUE V HAINHOLZ MH,   COOKIES & CREAM II, WHITE & LIVER, SE 686543   KS DC YBOLD ROTHENUFFELN, 03-07-1978   CAZADORA VON RU,   CH SNIP'S CRICKET VON JAEGERHOF MH, Liver & White Ptch, IC= 8.27877   DC-AFC STRADIVARIUS BAROUQUE, LIVER ROAN, SF 186324   DC HILLHAVEN'S HUSTLER, LVR TKD, SC 706342   HILLHAVEN HANDSOME,   HILLHAVEN MARK V'S MANDY,   WENDY V ENZSTRAND,   DC-AFC ESSER'S DUKE VD WILDBURG,   JUTTA V BUGELHOF,   SNIP'S GIDGET SH, Liver & White Tkd,   DC-NAFC TIMBERDOODLE LANCER'S ANSWER, LIVER, SC 669200   FC-AFC AMMERTAL'S LANCER D,   DA-LORS BRANDIE VD WILDBURG,   SNIPS CHICK VON WILDBURG SH ROM,   DC-AFC ESSER'S DUKE VD WILDBURG,   BIRDACRES SNIP OF SNOW SH,   CH NEVER COMPLAIN REGARDLESS, IC= 22.03958   CH TOP BRASS REGARDLESS JH, IC= 0.38855   BISS CH QUICK BUCK REGARDLESS JH,   CH RUGERHEIM'S SUN CROW SPIRIT,   DC-AFC RUGERHEIM'S BIT OF BOURBON,   NMK'S BRIESA VON HAWKEYE,   CH RUGERHEIM'S BLUE VELVET, LIVER & WHITE TKD, SM 92658308   CH RUGERHEIM'S VERY INSPIRATION,   NMK'S FOXFIRE VON RUGERHEIM,   IRON PEG REGARDLESS JH,   FC-AFC RAMMER'S GRAND CODY, LIVER, SD 378690   DC-AFC ESSER'S DUKE VD WILDBURG,   FC-AFC RAMMER'S RUFFIAN,   SARAH'S HEIDI REGARDLESS JH, LIVER ROAN PATCHED, SN 012746/01   MAJOR VON FLIEGEN MEISTER,   EAGLE EYE WINDY,   CH BUCK FEVER REGARDLESS, IC= 16.90289   BISS CH QUICK BUCK REGARDLESS JH,   CH RUGERHEIM'S SUN CROW SPIRIT,   DC-AFC RUGERHEIM'S BIT OF BOURBON,   NMK'S BRIESA VON HAWKEYE,   CH RUGERHEIM'S BLUE VELVET, LIVER & WHITE TKD, SM 92658308   CH RUGERHEIM'S VERY INSPIRATION,   NMK'S FOXFIRE VON RUGERHEIM,   CH SECRET RECIPE REGARDLESS JH,   CH RUGERHEIM'S SUN CROW SPIRIT,   DC-AFC RUGERHEIM'S BIT OF BOURBON,   NMK'S BRIESA VON HAWKEYE,   SARAH'S HEIDI REGARDLESS JH, LIVER ROAN PATCHED, SN 012746/01   MAJOR VON FLIEGEN MEISTER,   EAGLE EYE WINDY,

The % are calculated using Wrights IC. The formula can be found just by doing a Google Search.

So lets compare the pedigree. Higgins is double bred on his grandfather top and bottom (Stradivarius Baroque). Although his parents have low IC %, Higgins is the product of a Half brother - half sister breeding. Thus the higher %.

Your bitch is also double bred on her grandfather top and bottom (Ch Qucik Buck Regardless). However both of her parents also carry the same mother line. Look at the 3rd generation. Sarah's Heidi Regardless JH. This is why her IC % is higher than Higgins.

So I would say that in a perfect world both Higgins and your bitch have a "Higher Likelihood" of getting genetics from their grandsires.

From a linebreeding perspective, I like the way the pedigree was put together to produce your female. Double Bred grandsire with an identical motherline in the 3rd generation. I'd consider this to be a good breeding practice considering all the dogs are in good health and bring strong performance abilities to the table. Trego is the product a linebreed litter. I imagine some thought and foresight went into producing the litter Trego is out of.

To answer your question, "If the IC % can never be to high don't you run the risk of to a small gene pool?"

Yes, if everyone was breeding to the "the flavor of the month" stud dog the genetic pool would shrink but as soon as you outcross so goes the high IC%.

A true example of this is the pedigree listed a few posted above. Two linebred dogs that when combined only produce a 1.5% IC. In my personal opinion, I consider Higgins to Trego a true outcross. Some may disagree.

Like anything else, outcrosses are necessary in any breeding program. One of the things that has not been mentioned in this thread is size. When bred tight generation after generation, dogs will lose size and bone. Thus it could be time to do an outcross.

I agree that health does come in many forms. Likewise so does performance. What I perceive as performance might not be that same as you. Alot of the definiton of performance has to do with what "doggy game" you are playing in the US. There are many.....

It was some part science. I looked for proven sires that wouldn't hurt the conformation, where highly trainable, and looked for males with DC Esser's Duke in their pedigree. Higgins has proven himself and his offspring are competing nicely in HT's and NAVDHA.

In that last litter there was one or more I could breed back to, but a breeder can't control all the dogs they have sold. That last litter had an IC around 33%. I might later take this female back to a male or look for more wildburg lines to breed. I have thought about the limited registration thing and it may be where I go in the future, but I and everyone else has to evolve to our new thoughts. I see the great part about linebreeding, but everyone has to start somewhere in their line.