krtennyson
Northern Virginia
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Posts:69
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| 03/27/2008 1:24 PM |
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What does "wall eyes" refer to in the breed standard? Also, what are "flewy" lips? |
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Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.
Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/27/2008 2:39 PM |
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Wall eye refers to bird of prey eyes and flewy lips refers to lips that hang to long, like a bloodhound.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 03/27/2008 7:02 PM |
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Actually 'Wall eye' is a form of strabismus (what causes crossed eyes) but in 'wall eyes' the eye turn out, or look at the walls. See below for a more technical explaination.
What is strabismus?
Strabismus is a deviation of the eyes. The term is used to describe eyes that are not straight or properly aligned.
What causes the misalignment?
The misalignment results from the failure of the eye muscles to work together. One eye, or sometimes both, may turn in (crossed eyes), turn out (wall eyes), turn up or turn down. Sometimes more than one of the 'turns' are present.
Bird or prey, or yellow eyes are faulted, china eyes (blue) or wall eyes are disqualifiers.
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 03/27/2008 7:38 PM |
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| I am beginning to get confused. All of a sudden the color yellow and blue come into the conversation. In addition, "Wall Eye" becomes a form of strabismus. Thus two terms cover three situations. Will anyone please site the source of their information? |
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 03/27/2008 8:42 PM |
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Well, my definition of wall eye if from a medical reference, and the only def. I have known for it in horse or dogs.
Google 'Wall eye' and you will get plenty of sources.
I brought up the 'bird of prey' (Yellow) and china eyes because the converstion (to me) was about faults, dq's.
What is your def. of wall eyes?
Edited to try to make myself clearer:
Pixies' answer was that wall eyes, are bird of prey eyes.
I included the faults and dq's as that bird of prey eyes are a fault in the standard, and wall eyes are a dq, so they are apparently not the same thing.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/28/2008 4:36 AM |
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It was explained to me years ago by a breeder that wall eye, in GSPs, refers to bird of prey eyes.
I did a search this morning and I found several sites that connect wall eye to bird of prey eyes.
Sorry if it has become more confusing.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 03/28/2008 10:48 AM |
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Francine, how can they be the same when in the standard it states: (the american standard)
Faults: Light yellow (Bird of Prey) are undesirable and are a fault
Disqualification: China or Wall eyes
They cannot be a fault if they are a dq.
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r.r.rouse
MH
Posts:106
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| 03/28/2008 11:21 AM |
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I will have extra butter on my pop corn,please! |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/28/2008 12:15 PM |
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rrrouse,
I don't know what you are implying.
I was told that wall eyes is not the same as light eyes. She is an experienced breeder so I took it for what she said.
When I did a search this mornig this is what I found.
Hope it's okay to post these site.
http://www.fourjaysgsps.com/page2.asp
Scroll down to faults,It lists it separate from light eyes and it lists it as a fault.
http://www.estatekennels.com/standard.html
This site lists wall eye as bird of prey and not the same as light colored.
Both sites also do not list them as DQs.
This is not something I ever had to worry about so I have not bothered to explore it until now.
Anyone know any show judges?
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/28/2008 12:28 PM |
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okay, I am obsessed with wall eye now.
This is what I found and it seems to make sense to me.
http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Wall-eye
Does it help?At all?
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 03/28/2008 5:57 PM |
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Hi "pixie bee",
You are doing great work but I think we need to somehow tie it back to the US GSP standard. On your post of 03/28/2008 12:15 PM the first link is to a site in AUSTRALIA. What I would like are references to when the US standard was first adopted, what sources and thinking went into causing changes which resulted in the US satandard. The second link is to a site in Canada. I find it interesting that the two standards are different relative to the discription of the eye (that's life). In your post of 03/28/2008 12:28 PM the link is to references to horses. Not a problem but again I look for information that ties this to the people who made the US standard. It's like a criminal case and you want that chain of evidence. Otherwise it is circumstantial and has a tangental or weak (at best) bearing on the case. |
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 03/28/2008 9:46 PM |
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Agree with Ken here, two other standards. The one from my previious post is the akc standard (from Byrnes book), she didn't go into any detail on what it means. Then I looked it up in Maxwells book, talks about bird of prey eyes, then under the dq's (china and wall) just states that no one can imagine a gs showing up with either?
When I search I get pages of sites like this http://www.preventblindness.org/children/strabismusFAQ.html
Now just to confuse the situation more, I just searched wall eye dog and found this
http://www.dogsworldwide.com/articles/vb1.htm
Which if you read enough says this:'These are known as "Merle Eyes". This is not to be confused with a wall, or blue eye, which is a colour change in the iris. A merle eye can appear in a dog with a normal iris equally as much as a dog with a wall eye, or blue iris."
They refer to it as blue, which in reading the standard (akc) says dq's are china or wall eyes, which always kind of sounded to me like they meant the same thing, but, I have always thought it was the medical description above, because that was always the way the term was used around me.
Any akc judges on here?!
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/29/2008 6:18 AM |
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Since I can't imagine either one showing up in a GSP either, I think I'll bow out.
Seems to me this is one of those situations where "interpretation" may be required?
How 'bout we all just stick to breeding quality shorthairs and not worry about very light,china or wall eye?
Now the flewy lip thing is more common in a shorthairs, either not enough or to much.
And how about those snippy muzzels?
YUCK!
Fracine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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krtennyson
Northern Virginia
MH
Posts:69
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| 03/29/2008 10:09 AM |
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| Mmmmm, seems like understanding a DQ in our standard is important...even if we don't "think" it can happen??? |
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Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.
Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time. |
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krtennyson
Northern Virginia
MH
Posts:69
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| 03/29/2008 10:14 AM |
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That said, I think that we are fine if it refers to eye color, since everyone knows the correct color is dark brown. If it refers strabismus (which I strongly suspect it does), then we simply have to avoid dogs with eyes that are not in sinc (either cross-eyed or the opposite of cross-eyed where eyes look more outward than inward).
From the web:
Strabismus, more commonly known as cross-eyed or wall-eyed, is a vision condition in which a person can not align both eyes simultaneously under normal conditions. One or both of the eyes may turn in, out, up or down. An eye turn may be constant (when the eye turns all of the time) or intermittent (turning only some of the time, such as, under stressful conditions or when ill). Whether constant or intermittent, strabismus always requires appropriate evaluation and treatment. Children do not outgrow strabismus! |
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Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has one.
Genuine dialogue benefits everyone, getting on your soapbox is a waste of everyone's time. |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 03/29/2008 2:40 PM |
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| At this point can we even say that the terms "bird of prey", "China", and "Wall" are terms of color with respect to the iris? Or are they terms of physical attributes of the eye. That is, eyes close together, eyes slanted, or unable to align both eyes simultaneously. Just like people get very upset when a judge DQ's a dark liver dog as being black so will they be upset if a judge DQ's a dog for having "China" eyes. If we do not know what the term means there is no way we can educate judges when they have a different take on the meaning. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/29/2008 5:24 PM |
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Judges disqualify a dark liver dog b/c they think it is black???
Say it isn't so.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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| 03/29/2008 7:20 PM |
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It is so....
Phyllis and the ever dark liver Ch Singltrak Song For America, JH (Kate), who has been mistaken more than once for being black.
www.singltrakshorthairs.com |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 03/30/2008 9:06 PM |
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| China and Wall Eyes are one in the same. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 03/31/2008 2:22 PM |
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| The World is flat. Me simply making that statement does not make it true. Bruce, what documentation can you point to to back up your premise. The standard states "China or wall eyes are to be disqualified." If the sentance read "Black or Blue colors are to be disqualified." Would you make the statement that Black and Blue are one and the same? |
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