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zodiakgsps
NW PA
MH
Posts:1059
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| 03/02/2011 6:02 PM |
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Pixie, I probably train a tad different than most. I start out the same, bird intro (and I start that young, live birds at 7 weeks, no wing on a string stuff)
Get the pup on birds once or twice weekly with lots of field exposure, maybe 2-3 birds per session when I work birds. No whoa here yet, nothing but here & turning work.
The age I start whoa ON birds depends on the dog, so lets take a young starter for example. By 7 mnths, my pup is starting to hold well thru flush on his own(only breaks once bird is up). He has been started on obedience whoa at home, parks, fields (no birds) and is whoaing well on command w.o any checkcord, e-collar etc. He whoas at a distance as well, 20 yds or so. (this will extend with age & training) He whoas and holds well thru retrieving drills, bumpers being tossed with a blank shot or launched bumpers. I train whoa much like Brenda, collar on flank, pick up & put back.
Now I will take him completely off planted birds for up to a month. (again, the dog tells you) and start stop-to-flush. I start by whoaing him & then tossing a pigeon & letting it fly away, reset pup if he breaks, praise well/treat if he stands. Always toss bird with the wind, this is a visual, not scent exercise.
I will continue this maybe 4-6 times over a 30 minute period with pup running freely in between. USUALLY by the last bird, pup is standing w/o any correction.
Next session, 2-3 days later, I start out the same, whoa, then toss bird. If pup holds well, I up the ante, I toss bird, give pup a split second to stop on his own (he is on a CC BTW, I drop it between tosses & allow free run) , give him the choice to make the correct decision & whoa/pop CC if needed.
I only make them stand 20 seconds or so & praise.
Once pup is stopping himself on the toss, I again up the ante and add a blank shot. Repeat training as above. Again, I up the ante & put birds in traps, working the wrong side of wind, pop bird, correct & reset pup if needed (this is like a remote toss, adds stress as bird is coming off ground now & pup is farther from you)
Once pup is stopping and holding well to this, as I walk up, I toss another bird. Like a multiple flush but controlled here. After a few successful sessions, I will toss the second bird tethered so it only flys a short distance & comes down. I will then walk over, pick it up, back to pup & release/praise.
The final step is to pop ground bird, have a helper & have them shoot the tossed bird. I will walk to it, pick it up, toss it by hand again, back to pup & release for retrieve.
Once this is down pat, I go back to planting birds & allowing pup to work bird & point it. Now the pup has been taught STF and stop to shot well by the above method already, but I still start them out on a CC for quick corrction if they break. I have found this helps immensely with them holding on a pointed bird, you have laid a good foundation for holding thru flush/shot and drop.
This has worked well for me, I am sure it has flaws & won't help with every dog & not all will agree with it. I might add, I only shoot one or 2 birds per session, but only allow 1 retrieve, don't let them expect a retrieve on every shot, they will start anticipating & breaking. Retrieving work can be done with bumpers or dead birds. You can allow more retrieves as the dog progresses along. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/03/2011 5:03 AM |
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Thank you for the detailed explanation.
You use a flank collar. I have considered using one and I have not - a mental block b/c I want to train with as little use of the e-collar as possible. My dogs are so high drive that I think the key is the flank stim. The dogs also smell a set up a mile away. I can't use a trap b/c of this and they can smell if a bird is catchable or not- these are the birds they go nose-to-nose with.
I know that the methods I use work b/c on grouse, woodcock and even the state released pheasants they perform well. At tests everything just falls apart. It's like they have been given a hooligan license for the day.
I am going to attend NAVHDA training days hoping to recreate test days and we can get over this hurdle.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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zodiakgsps
NW PA
MH
Posts:1059
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| 03/03/2011 5:20 AM |
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Pixie, I use a plain collar on the flank, not e-collar, just for picking the dog up & re-setting.
I don't use scenting for the exercises, I bring dog in WITH the wind to the traps. Granted, doesn't always work, wind swirls, but for the most part can be done by using mounds, depressions in the ground, etc. Bird is popped at a decent distance, not under dogs nose.
My guys do pick up quickly on hand tossing the birds, so I often enlist the help of people for this & have one of them toss birds as they walk along to my right or left 10 or so yds away. I don't repeat these steps many times. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/03/2011 9:52 AM |
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Do you condition the dog to the pressure of the flank collar to be used to facilitate steadiness?
I know some trainers do this and then transfer to the e-collar.
What also may be the problem for me is that we work on this on a Saturday then maybe on Sunday if I have time. Even tho it is nearly every weekend it must not be enough. I have an opportunity to spend the summer at our property upstate NY and this will give me the time I need to work on it daily.
Getting enough birds will not the issue.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 03/03/2011 2:48 PM |
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| I need to steady/whoa Tessa in the field and plan on using a leather pinch collar and a check cord. One bird per session. No launchers for her at this point. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/04/2011 5:07 AM |
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Glad to hear you are spending time to work on field training.
Take pictures and keep us updated.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Phillyo118
UK
MH
Posts:681
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| 03/30/2011 7:56 AM |
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I would love to do some of this with Bentley but being in the UK i have NO idea where to begin, and to be honest most of what you've said has gone sailing rapidly over my head! We're working on the whoa using a whoa board now and he's getting the idea but all i'm using to proof it is his ball, which he loves ofc but it's no live bird.
Where do I get the birds from? How do i set them down and them not just fly away as soon as I walk away? He loves to chase them at the moment, saw his first few pheasants the other day and swung around straight away as he got scent of them, which was a huge relief to see! Also chased a deer for a bit but soon gave up, haha.
I'm guessing it's just a case of getting out into woods/forest/fields where there are likely to be wild pheasant etc? |
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"From the dog's point of view, his master is an elongated and abnormally cunning dog."
"My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am." |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/30/2011 8:45 AM |
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Here is a video from a couple weeks ago of Bregon performing the fundamentals. I consider this a circus act, but it does have its purpose in the begining - I have to know the dog understands what I want if I'm going to correct him. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/30/2011 8:47 AM |
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How do I get a video to play?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Phillyo118
UK
MH
Posts:681
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| 03/30/2011 1:57 PM |
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Link it from Youtube  |
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"From the dog's point of view, his master is an elongated and abnormally cunning dog."
"My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am." |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/30/2011 3:30 PM |
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| OK thanks |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
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| 03/31/2011 5:38 AM |
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We're working on whoa, slow but steady. I've begun proofing, right now with a bumper and dead birds. Once that's solid, we'll move onto live birds. For that I will have a check cord attached to stop him if he breaks so he can't reward himself. But so far, the process has been going very well. Here's a few pics from the other night:
Reward for holding!
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UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/31/2011 6:37 AM |
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The youtube thing is not working out for me.
If anyone wants to read my blog on steadying and watch my videos please scoot over to: http://www.kurzhaarforum.com/
and go to DK blogs
Please feel free to post comments on either site
Thanks |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 03/31/2011 6:37 AM |
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Nice pictures.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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tnbndr
New Berlin, Wisconsin
MH
Posts:115
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| 03/31/2011 10:36 AM |
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@legallyblonde:
That is a nice looking dog. Black it looks like from the pictures or is the lighting fooling me. |
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Dennis |
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Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
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| 03/31/2011 11:59 AM |
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Thanks! Yep he's black.
-Sara |
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UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 04/01/2011 12:16 PM |
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Nice dog and great photos!
Francine: I went to that forum page but couldn't find "DK blogs" anywhere. Would love to see the videos.
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Legallyblonde
Otsego MI
MH
Posts:244
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| 04/01/2011 1:27 PM |
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| I couldn't find it either--glad I'm not the only one!! I'd love to see the vids too. |
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UWPCH CA GSJCH USUVCH Boogerman Loverboy Oskar TDI CGC
SHR UWP CH Abbe Lane's Prince of Darkness TAN NA-I RBIMBS |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 04/01/2011 1:59 PM |
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My husband had the same problem - he told me he needed to log in. When you log in you also have access to the training and testing area.
Pretty boring stuff - mostly me 
If you don't mind - maybe you could joing the forum?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Max2
Oneonta NY
MH
Posts:1115
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| 04/02/2011 4:20 AM |
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Posted By Phillyo118 on 03/30/2011 7:56 AM
I would love to do some of this with Bentley but being in the UK i have NO idea where to begin, and to be honest most of what you've said has gone sailing rapidly over my head! We're working on the whoa using a whoa board now and he's getting the idea but all i'm using to proof it is his ball, which he loves ofc but it's no live bird.
Where do I get the birds from? How do i set them down and them not just fly away as soon as I walk away? He loves to chase them at the moment, saw his first few pheasants the other day and swung around straight away as he got scent of them, which was a huge relief to see! Also chased a deer for a bit but soon gave up, haha.
I'm guessing it's just a case of getting out into woods/forest/fields where there are likely to be wild pheasant etc?
Try this website for getting birds : http://www.mynaga.org/index.php/locator/countries/
or go under bridges at night with a net and catch the pidgeons. ( I know now you guys know I wasn't always a countryside dweller) Yes I used to live in the city ! LOL! |
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Chris |
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