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Cozzy171
Indianapolis, IN
JH
Posts:25
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| 07/18/2011 9:21 AM |
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I am having an issue with the hold command in my force fetch program. My dog, Rufus, will calmly hold my hand/dowel/frozen bird in his mouth, however it is like he is balancing it on his lower jaw and not actually biting with any pressure. So instead of holding it is like he is just letting whatever the item sit on his lower jaw. I am worried this will be a problem when I transistion to fetch. Does anyone have any tips on improving this? Thank you |
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Rufus - 2 Yr's Young GSP
Our first of many |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7926
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| 07/18/2011 11:00 AM |
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| When I teach force fetch and my dog does that with the dumb bell, bumper, dowel, or any item I am teaching them to hold I gently tap on one end or the other and they usually tighten up their grasp a bit. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 07/18/2011 11:56 AM |
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He is not taking responsibility - show him there is a consequence for not holding properly.
Question- are you still at the stage where you are opening his mouth and placing the object in?
How old is Rufus? |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Cozzy171
Indianapolis, IN
JH
Posts:25
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| 07/20/2011 7:53 AM |
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Thanks for the replies. He just turned three...i know a little late, but we adopted him and he is my first and Im learning. Yes I am just working on hold, opening his mouth and placing the object in his mouth. I believe he understands what i want I have been marking the problem with Aught and popping him under the chin when he does it. I just didnt know if i should start using more force (ear pinch/twist) to enforce or another method. Thanks for the help |
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Rufus - 2 Yr's Young GSP
Our first of many |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7926
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| 07/20/2011 9:43 AM |
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| I would not pop him under the chin as I believe that will result in the opposite of what you really want. I would also guess he is not sure about what you are asking of him. What I would do is place the object in his mouth and when he does not hold it firmly, I would tap on the end so it jiggles. Normal dog reflex will result in him holding it more firmly. I would then reward that behavior because that is the behavior you want. Later once he understands what you want him to do you can add the pressure of a correction because then he will know what to do to remove the pressure of the correction. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 07/20/2011 9:55 AM |
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I agree with texasbelle.
Are his teeth OK?
IMO, don't start using any force until he knows what you want.
Can you walk him a bit,will he drop.
What object are you putting in his mouth,how much praise are you giving and how long are you requiring he hold it?
3 years old is not an age I would start at,especially a rescue.
Is that him in your avatar?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 07/21/2011 6:09 AM |
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Sounds like you aren't trying to move him?
First make him responsible, what correction are you using when he doesn't hold it, and it falls? You can't babysit it (standing there with your hand under it the whole time, I have actually had people tip it back into the dogs mouth and think they are getting somewhere) Let him drop it and correct it(you have to be very quick about this, always have another dowel in your hand so you don't have to fumble with picking up the dropped one) I pinch the teeth against their lips, as they learn what is expected I pinch harder for correction. At first you just want to make it pressure. And get him moving forward, lot of people let them stand with the 'hold' command, I get them moving on day one, it will do away with a lot of the problem you are having as the dog has to think about keeping it in, and you avoid causing confusion that fetch just means stand there with that in you mouth. Ear pinch is saved (at least the way I do it) for when you are actually forcing the grab or pick up, you are still in the 'training' stage.
IMO 3 is not to old, all of mine have worked 'hunted' until they are 13, so this dog hopefully has 10 useful years left. Now being a rescue, you probably have no idea what anyone has tryed to train him, and a half assed forced fetched dog is harder to 'fix' then anything else. they are already one this battle once, and in some cases many times. But, don't let his age be a problem. |
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Cozzy171
Indianapolis, IN
JH
Posts:25
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| 07/22/2011 10:40 AM |
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Thank you so much for the help guys...I cant answer all three of your replies but they equally meant as much to me. Last night i worked with him three times for about 10 mins each. I really try to keep it as light as possible, correcting him only by putting the object back in. The pops were just to reinforce closing but i think i have learned that backing away has helped. I think he felt my hand was there to babysit as trey said. Right now i am using a paint roller, I think i moved to the wooden dowel a little quickly as he does very well with the paint roller. I am going to start trying to move him with it tonight and see how he does. Thanks for the advice Trey.
Yes that is him in my avatar. He is not necessarily a rescue, but we did adopt him at a year old. I knew the lady who owned him as she was the postmaster in the small town i work in. He came from a very nice family, however/thankfully they did not do any training/hunting with him. I actually tracked down his breeder and met him and got his papers. He has been great to train, very well obedience, and his hunt training has gone great. He is definitely not too old to learn, he actually loves any type of training and you can really see his spirits lift as he gets to use his brain.
Thanks again all three of you!!! |
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Rufus - 2 Yr's Young GSP
Our first of many |
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snips
n.ga.
MH
Posts:413
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| 07/22/2011 12:52 PM |
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I do all FF early a.m. in the coolest part of the day..Nothing worse than a dog trying to pant and breathe in the heat and hold a dumbell...I do not worry too much about a slacker on the hold....It will clean them up when you start the ear pinch...They will have to start being responsible or else....Once I start the ear pinch if it is dropped I replace it with an ear pinch..They find out it pays to hold on! |
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brenda |
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Bah395
Posts:9
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| 08/23/2011 12:26 PM |
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| I've tried the ear pinch while teaching the "hold" command, but he will let it drop out to the side. Do I continue the ear pinch or is another method appropriate? |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 08/23/2011 12:41 PM |
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Are you following a training program?
If so, which one? |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Bah395
Posts:9
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| 08/23/2011 12:46 PM |
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No. He has gone through training before I got him.
I'm doing refreshers because he is chewing/mouthing on retrieve and dropping before I give the "release" command. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 08/23/2011 1:47 PM |
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Wrong approach - stop until you get a program to follow
I do not recommend you continue until you get hooked up with someone knowledgable
snips - who answered just above - is a great person to seek advice from
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7926
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| 08/23/2011 3:26 PM |
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| I agree with pixie. You really do need to understand how to use the ear pinch. Timing is very important. So, if you have someone near you that has trained FF and can help you contact them. There are also some good books an videos around if you do not know of anyone. Snips is excellent if you live close to her. Almost Heaven on this forum is also excellent, again depending on where you live. If you post where you are I may know of some other folks that I could recommend that are near you. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 08/23/2011 3:29 PM |
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Hi,
I looked at the video andTURN IT OFF!!!
I can go into why but won't unless you or someone wants to know why
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7926
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| 08/23/2011 4:40 PM |
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| Would be curious to see the video, but didn't see it in the posts. Pixie can you post the link? You have me curious now. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 08/23/2011 5:50 PM |
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Do you know if the dog was ear pinched or toe hitch pressured? Was the ff transitioned to the ecollar?
What needs to be done is to teach a proper HOLD.
No ear pinch,toe hitch,ecollar -
sit the dog down,sit next to him,open his mouth with your fingers and place in a paint roller or 2"dummy. As soon as he is HOLDING, take it out and give praise.
This is the begining.
If the dog does not respond to HERE then get that going,too.
When the dog is HOLDING well, get him on his feet and start walking. Have your thumb under his chin to prevent the dummy from falling out.
You can do this, but do it correctly |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Cricketdog
MH
Posts:73
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| 08/23/2011 8:07 PM |
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Cozzy171,
Three years old isn't too late to train. I force trained my five year old gsp with an ear pinch and she had the most reliable retrieve around. She would even hold strips of cooked bacon in her mouth with my "hold it" command. And she was the first dog I force trained. Just take you time.
Cathy
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In my next life, I want to come back as my dog...what a life!
www.tomcatkennels.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 08/24/2011 9:00 AM |
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The issue I have with 3 years old is that this is the age that maturity sets in - dogs who have had training earlier usually continue to learn and accept training -
dogs who have not been trained usually have issues with accepting training.
Being this is a rescue it could be that the dog has not had consistent training and this could cause a learning block.
I beieve all dogs should be taught their entire lives - even if it's just maintaining training |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Bah395
Posts:9
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| 08/24/2011 11:29 AM |
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He was a rescue, but not in the typical sense. He has hunted many times with dove and duck. His owner was moving out of state for work. He was looking for another active owner that would hunt and exercise with him.
He's been through obedience school in Houston and is very good with sit, stay, come here, back, fetch, release, kennel, eat, in, out(doggie door) and other commands.
He needs work on his whoa, nipping at clothes after a period alone, licking, heeling to my left instead of in front of me, releasing his retrieve early, pulling while on the leash(getting better at this).
Belle, the videos I was referencing earlier in the thread are located here.
http://youtu.be/NHHnMINt6CQ
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