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APATZ_GSP
Posts:16
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| 11/02/2010 11:11 AM |
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I grew up with and hunted with labs. I decided to get a GSP for my first hunting dog on my own. i dont really know where to start. he is 15 weeks old and he walks ok on the leash will retreive anything i throw. he loves birds went to a local NAVHDA meeting and he was introduced to a duck for the first time and took it by the wing then droped it and rolled all over it. I guess the biggest thing is i dont really know where to start and what kind of things i need to have to train him. In my oppinion the labs i grew up with were far easier to train. any help or info will be helpful thanks in advance |
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Allen & Ammo
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Max2
Oneonta NY
MH
Posts:1115
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| 11/03/2010 3:15 AM |
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I am sure there are a lot of better quailified people on here but little bit of advice I was given as a beginner which I think helped a lot was " if you get him coming" you got it licked ! I am and have been fortunate where as I live in rural upstate NY and get him out in the woods every single day. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 11/03/2010 4:05 AM |
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Hi and welcome.
With a couple of exceptions, you can train him just like a lab.
Exceptions being: get him out in the fields using his nose and searching and encourage independence while nurturing cooperation.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3136
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| 11/03/2010 4:18 AM |
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| I had labs growing up and now GSP's and I have not noticed the GSP's being harder to train, actually I think they are very smart and have no problems...though I have never hunted either so that could be the difference... |
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MainCreeksRemi
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:824
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| 11/03/2010 7:17 AM |
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The thing I've noticed so far in the difference between my labs and the GSP is they are far more independent and maybe a little more outgoing that way. My labs are pretty clingy to me and seem to look for direction from me a little more. Now, I've only had Remi 3 weeks so that could all change.
He's a very smart pup and I think they need that constant challenge and adventure.
My best advice with any dog is lots of exercise, train a few short sessions each day and lots of praise and love. I'd like to get into hunting trials & tests with Remi some day and so I'll be looking for advice on how to train that as well. They have a natural knack for it, so its up to us to put it to its full potential.
I'd say first and formost, obedience and getting him to understand you are a team. You work together. Once he understands that he will look to you for direction in the field and the rest is up to him. He'll figure it out!
Best of luck! |
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Loved by Kelley:
Remi (7/3/2010) GSP
Morgan (5/17/2008) Choco Lab
Nallah (8/6/2006) Black Lab |
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APATZ_GSP
Posts:16
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| 11/03/2010 8:48 AM |
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Thanks for all the input everyone. i realized right after i got the first response why i said that labs were easier and that was because i wasnt trianing them my dad was lol. he just seems to be hard headed most of the time and i get frustrated and think it didnt look that hard for my dad. That what kind of training tool would you all recomend and if any what training dvds would you recomend. The pup is great and i want him to do the best and prove my dad wrong because he cant stand a dog that points. thanks again
Allen and Ammo |
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Allen & Ammo
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oneal3337
Great Falls, Mt
MH
Posts:107
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| 11/03/2010 11:27 AM |
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| Good luck with your new pup. I would get some books and videos and learn as much as you can. The first time I had a pointing dog I used a book called "Speed Training Your Bird Dog". Worked great to train a working gun dog. Don't discount your dad's dog training experience. He's probably a font of knowledge on recall, trained retrieved, blinds and quartering. I think you'll find training a pointing dog easier then training a lab just due to the fact there are so many more commands and hand signals a lab has to learn. My wife runs labs and the amount of training they have to do is unreal. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 11/03/2010 9:59 PM |
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| Actually shorthairs are very smart and are softer than most people realize. That combination sometimes makes people think they are stubborn or not very smart. That combination also means that you as a handler have to work to keep the shorthair engaged and excited about what you are training them to do. It also means that you can't drill a shorthair like you might a Golden or a Lab. Shorthairs also tend to do better if you re-enforce the good behavior and ignore the bad. As for training methods, there are as many methods as there are books and they all have good aspects that can be leveraged. I recommend you read and adopt the methods that you are comfortable with and try them with your dog. Remember what works with one dog may not work with another. For hunt training I always recommend the videos from Perfection Kennels, Perfect Start and Perfect Finish. For obedience I like the books by Diane Baumann. For general animal behavior one of the best books out there is a book by Patricia McConnell, The Other End of the Leash. There are lots of good books and a good single source of dog books is dogwise.com. Good luck with your training and welcome to the forum. Oh and don't forget to post some pictures of your pup. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 11/04/2010 12:44 PM |
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I would disagree completely that you can train a shorthair like a lab. Unless you are going to use your dog for ducks, geese, and doves ignore this advice. Retrievers are mostly about dependence and pointing dogs are mostly about independence. A pointing dog must be allowed to learn to hunt, to learn to use his innate abilities to find and point birds. Which means, he must learn to find birds, to seach effectively, and to use his nose. He must be allowed to range and become independent enough to take you to birds. I would suggest finding someone who has trained many dogs and who hunts the birds you will hunt. Have that person work his dogs for you and make sure he owns dogs that are well trained, meaning will hunt hard, will range, will point staunchly, hold for the shot, kill, or fall, and will retrieve to hand. Pointing dogs are NOT about control like Labs.
You might read Earl Crangle, Bob Wehle, Delmar Smith, get videos by Sherry Ebert, Delmar Smith, Ferrell Miller, etc. Gun Dog is a useless book!!!
Best advice, find a mentor who will help you. You'll be light years ahead in the long run!! |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 11/04/2010 2:39 PM |
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You didn't read my post carefully enough.
There is nothing about having a dog handle that detracts from independancce,range, boldness, searching ability or nose.
Or,heavens forbid - teach a dog to sit.
I train my dogs following the Evan Graham SmartWork series, with some exceptions.
Balance in training is the key to success.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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APATZ_GSP
Posts:16
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| 11/07/2010 6:22 PM |
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thanks to everyone that posted.
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Allen & Ammo
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 11/17/2010 7:27 AM |
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Here's the problem pixie, people read it's ok to train a gsp like a lab so they do what they do with a lab, they teach obedience more than anything. They do teach sit, they teach HERE or COME, they get going with hand signals, etc. etc. BUT they don't let the dog learn to range, to hunt, to find birds, to become independent, they become dependent.
How does one, who has trained a lab, understand what it meant by "encourage independence while nurturing cooperation". What is independence to a lab person, where does this person hunt, what do they hunt? How big is running TOO big? Most get paranoid, not just lab folks, but most new trainers. IMHO, it is far more important to get a dog out, learning to really hunt hard while ranging however big is needed to find birds. To take the hunters to birds. IMHO, the dog's job is to take us to birds, not just to be guided around objectives and told where to hunt to find birds.
I would rather err on the side of letting a dog become a little too independent than to ruin one by cranking 'em down and shortening 'em up. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 11/17/2010 9:28 AM |
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How does one, who has trained a lab, understand what it meant by "encourage independence while nurturing cooperation".
Maybe my world is small but I believe this to be self explainatory. I hear what you are saying. Not sure tho what you are recomending. Sounds more like you would be encouraging a hooligan (I don't mean to be inflamatory)then refine him. This is difficult for most people to do.
my full quote was:
get him out in the fields using his nose and searching and encourage independence while nurturing cooperation.
If my recomendation is taken the OP will know/begin to see the pup's natural range. He can then decide his comfort zone - maybe too short, maybe to wide?
Teaching here,sit,whoa,fun retreives to within a few feet,getting started on turning and directions will not discourage a young dog's drive and desire. Now...
I am hoping the dog is well bred,as I do with all the advice I give. BALANCE is the key along with READING a dog. A well bred dog will allow us to screw up many times - what's called being forgiving. Even so, read the dog, know when you are applying to much pressure,moving to fast and adjust accordingly.
A dog will naturally stretch out while searching, it's just what they do, or they are not searching - drive is lacking. A young dog/dog would have to have a somewhat soft temperment along with immaturity to stop searching due to pressure from handler/training.My original recomendation did not mention obedience. I am a huge fan of exposure. I'd rather have a dog who knows how to hunt than a dog who knows obedience. Know-how coupled with cooperation is something I can work with.
We can never know what a dog's full potential can be unless we train them.
Read the dog and train the dog that's in front of you.
You made good points and they do need to be considered. Your way will mold a quality dog into a fine hunting partner.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 11/17/2010 9:40 AM |
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Pixie, I haven't a clue where you get I am advocating a hooligan. Not out of control, not NO obedience, not running like a lunatic, but learning to hunt, learning to be independent. I don't know how many dogs you or anyone else has trained or seen, but few dogs are out of control, most I see, particularly hunting or testing are in dire need of range, desire, and seem to look to their owners for direction. I find it hard to believe that most want to tell their dogs where to go. I am one that wants my dog to take me to the birds, to hunt objectives no matter where they are, decisions based on the dog's experience from finding birds in the past. Yes, I love a big running dog, particularly where we hunt, 7,000 acre leases, 2 mile long fields where a dog can be seen for a 1/2 mile or more. We often lose sight of our dogs for 10 minutes or more, but they have learned to show, to look for us, or we find them on point.
Most new trainers want to train, to do something, anything, with their dog. So, they teach HERE, KENNEL, hand signals, whistles, put 'em on tons of pen birds, and often forget that learning to hunt, to shut up and let the dog run and hunt, are at least as important. Breeding does not guarantee proper range. Learning to find birds and breeding does.
I just see TOOOOOO many messed up dogs that will never be much due to training errors as above. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 11/17/2010 11:05 AM |
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What is proper range?
I will bet my bottom dollar that my dogs would be considered messed up by you.
I advocate exposure.
Will a dog find more birds further out - no, not more - just the birds that are further out. A dog heading for the far off objective is missing a lot of ground, ground I may get my limit in, but now have to follow my dog miles,on GPS, b/c that's where the dog says the birds are. Experience can teach a dog many things. My dogs are hard charging,cover ground swiftly and we range out together, as a team. We hunt primarily in the woods,everything is an objective. That dog will stay where I can see him so he can find and retrieve all manner of game. Many times we come across ponds - ducks for dinner!, or rabbit hopping about, rabbit stew!, a dog not close will not make the retrieves timely, in fact will miss out on the action.
It's not productive to tell others their dog doesn't have proper range b/c they can be seen most of the hunt. Far range does not equal better hunt. It's nose and cooperation that makes a hunt a hunt.
Breeding guarentees a dog will have the nose, the know-how,cooperation and drive.
Proper range is person preference.
Knowing the comfort range of the OP will help him make clear decisions on how he wants to train and hunt with a pointing breed.
For now, we are debating likes and dislikes and it's not productive.
This thread has had enough. I leave it up to the individual to decide what their likes and dislikes are and have lots of fun doing that research. I know I have.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 11/17/2010 12:26 PM |
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Pixie, we can argue until such time as you actually read what I write versus putting words in my mouth. I DID NOT say that big range is proper range, nor did I say that a dog will find birds further out. But, if a dog is hammered on and taught too much obedience without being able to learn to hunt AND "proper range" for a person's area is 150 yards, then a hammered dog may range 20 yards, making him relatively useless. In Texas and Oklahoma a dog that ranges 100 yards isn't going to find many birds. Further, a dog that hits all the cover and hunts like a "Hoover" is gonna be worn out after an hour. When one hunts large plots of 7,000 acres with sparse cover and mesquite thickets, edges, plowed fields, etc. a dog must range more. So, yes, the dog will find birds further out. But, AGAIN, when a new trainer puts tons of obedience and doesn't let the dog learn to range properly(whatever range is best in that person's area) then the dog is often hampered by its own range.
In most cases, proper range, is the range at which a dog needs to run to find birds and yes, be a partner to his owner/handler/hunter. Where a dog needs to go to find birds is far from personal preference it is dictated by the birds. Unless one hunts the fine "put and kill" places and you know where birds are released/planted. But, I wouldn't hunt that type of "establishment".
How in the world will a dog that ranges out not make retrieves timely? Are you hunting with a howitzer? We all kill birds or any other animal within GUN RANGE. Usually 5-15 yards, not 600 yards. If the dog ranges and we train the dog to be broke to the shot, he hunts, finds birds, points, holds until we get there to flush. Now, please tell me how his range affects his retrieving ability or timeliness? Now, that one's confusing to me!! |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 11/17/2010 2:19 PM |
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I did ask for you to define range.
Your definition is:
In most cases, proper range, is the range at which a dog needs to run to find birds
Where a dog needs to go to find birds is far from personal preference it is dictated by the birds.
I agree with the premise. The birds may very well be out 600+yards. But I'm not out there,not yet. That's about 1/2 mile away and in any direction. I don't own a GPS and I don't want to buy one. The dog doesn't scent them from that far, the dog needs to keep going until it picks up scent. Is the dog quartering? According to a previous post by you no, the dog is making a bee line of sorts straight out. Who covers all the ground left and right? Are you telling me the dog knows there are no birds left and right about 200' out? Now, in sparse grounds I can understand objectives, but that doesn't explain objectives that will be missed by lack of quartering.
I believe in covering ground together,anyway, I have to eventually walk to where the dog is to investigate a point. Pretty sad and frustrating when a great,stylish point produces no finds b/c the I'm as slow as molassas.
I'm not sure anyone mentioned hammering obedience. I mentioned balance,reading a dog, adjusting training as needed and training the dog that's in front of you - no cookie cutter approaches.
If a dog is ranging out and I'm 200 or so yards behind the dog and I see a pond I want to investigate,come upon a duck and I flush and shoot - where is the dog? The dog may come back with the shot, maybe I have to recall him. Either way, the duck is in the water and I have to wait.If it's a cripple on land or water that can mean a rather long search and maybe no find. And rabbits aren't any easier.
If the dog is with me,in gun range most of the time, I can rely on the hunt continuing in a timely manner with retrieves complete in a reasonable time frame.
Some food for thought. 2 very different approaches to hunting. No one is right or wrong. It is preference. I choose versatile, foot hunting dogs with tons of cooperation and drive. I think versatility changes the game a bit.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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APATZ_GSP
Posts:16
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| 11/17/2010 9:59 PM |
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Thanks for the info. I did not mean to start an argument i knew that there would be different food for thought and i actually pulled alot of good info from pixie and true. And if i knew more about the situation i would probably agree with one of you but that is why I am here and thats to learn. but for where i hunt i would have to go with pixie's approach.
But here's another question in the future i would like to take a hunting trip with my dog and the places that i am looking at are more like true's area. More than like likely i will still be on foot but how would i get my dog to realize that its new ground and maybe to range a little further or is that something you cant train a dog for.
and once again I am new to the pointing dogs and all advice is helpful thanks again. |
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Allen & Ammo
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 11/18/2010 6:19 AM |
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First thing that needs to be established is wild bird hunting. Your dog will need to be good at this before heading out to grounds that are sparse and coveys may be present. It wouldn't be fair to you or the dog if one week of the year you get out on grounds like this and the dog is clueless.
When going to areas like this you get to see a dog's bred in range and cooperation. Most dogs will open up in terrain that is wide and seemingly endless.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 11/18/2010 6:44 AM |
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Apparently it is far easier to just ignore what someone says and alter their post for your own argument sake. ONE MUST train his dog to fit the cover where he hunts. Only a raving moron would want a dog to range 600 yards if the cover dictates a short quartering type dog. Same is true of western Oklahoma, New Mexico, west Texas. A dog that ranges 25 yards or using your own distance 200' is absolutely useless for most hunters. The point of most pointing dogs is to NOT hunt within gun range, why would most want that type of dog? The dog goes to the birds, finds, points, holds them, you then walk to the dog and kill birds. The dog doesn't need to be in gun range, particularly in areas where we hunt, wild bobs only.
You say..." agree with the premise. The birds may very well be out 600+yards. But I'm not out there,not yet. That's about 1/2 mile away and in any direction. I don't own a GPS and I don't want to buy one. The dog doesn't scent them from that far, the dog needs to keep going until it picks up scent."
I flat don't understand that statement. The dog doesn't scent birds from 1/2 mile away???? Of course not, he points and we walk or in most cases, we drive our 4 wheelers or our Rangers or our Jeeps to the dog, load, and work the birds. If I wanted a dog in gun range I'd buy a field trial bred cocker. But, next to no one hunts flushers here. 95% of bird hunters hunt field trial bred pointers, GSPs, and Brits. We must have range for our type of hunting.
My point on "hammering" obedience is not hammering on the dog but overdoing the obedience work. Most new trainers, and you will understand this when you've seen hundreds of back yard trained pets that are pseudo hunting dogs, put lots of whoa, sit, here, kennel, whistles, hand signals, bird wings, etc. on their dogs while forgetting that THE most important piece is that the dog learns to hunt. You can argue all day, but if a dog will not hunt properly then he's a pure pet!!!!
Lastly, I also don't understand the statement, "If the dog is with me,in gun range most of the time, I can rely on the hunt continuing in a timely manner with retrieves complete in a reasonable time frame." How does range affect the retrieve?? If a dog MUST range out to find birds due to cover, due to vastness of the country, why is this a disadvantage and how does this affect the retrieve. You don't retrieve many birds that the dog doesn't find due to lack of range in areas that require a dog to hunt bigger.
I don't know where APATZ_GSP lives, but he may need your type of dog or he may be new enough to pointing dogs that he thinks a dog needs to be a close worker. But, until one understands what is needed to EFFECTIVELY hunt in the places where they will run their dogs, a misconception can kill the potential of a dog.
I would far rather tell it like it is than to let a new person ruin a dog and later say that he wishes he didn't crank the dog down so much.
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