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NanVA
Posts:10
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| 01/12/2009 6:56 PM |
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Well, it looks like my 5-month old rescue GSP "Otto" just hit the adolescent point. We have been working daily on the reliable recall and he was doing so well - considering his age and after one month of training. Today, while exercising off-lead, which we have been doing for several weeks, I gave him the recall command and he just looked at me and walked away. Nothing I did caused him to come to me. We usually walk off-lead (we live in a very rural environment with acreage) every day for about 45-60 minutes for his excercise, but now I don't know if I should continue this exercise knowing that he will come to me now only when he feels like it. If I call him and he doesn't come, is this negative training?
Actually, I'm disappointed but realize it's something we just have to get through.
Otto is our first GSP, and currently our only dog, and I spend hours everyday training the basic commands, playing with and excercising him so I feel sure he is getting enough attention.
I don't know how to move ahead with his training, especially the all-important recall training. Do I continue the off-lead hour-long excercise time knowing that he likely will not come when I call him? Do I regress to practicing the recall training only in the confinement of the house? During the adolescent time, is it better to continue attempting the recall training off-lead with bad results, or suspend the recall training until he begins to listen again?
I'm sure it varies from dog to dog, but about how long does this adolescent phase last?
Thanks for your time and thoughts on these questions.
NanVA
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bravepoint
North Gower, ON Canada
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Posts:894
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| 01/12/2009 7:31 PM |
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Early adolesence.... There's nothing to be gained by calling a dog and then he chooses not to come. You're only teaching him that he doesn't have to come to you unless he feels like it. If you ask him to come, you have to have a way of enforcing it if he decides to disobey. A check cord/long line will work if he is close enough to grab it to make him come when you call. An enclosed, fenced area is another way to work thru it. Make sure to always praise when he does come when called. I always carry treats and reinforce the recall. I need my dogs to come when called especially in winter when we walk on a snowmobile trail.
Gail |
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Gail, Moka, Avery, Terra & Rayne
Bravepoint GSPs
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7862
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 01/24/2009 7:29 PM |
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I whistle-trained Tessa, alternating the verbal command with the whistle (three sharp blasts), and although so far she responds to either, she is VERY quick to respond to the whistle. You may try that.
I have her on a check cord most of the time (30 ft). I have NEVER given the "come" command in a situation when I couldn't enforce it. I just now started off-leash work with her on a fenced baseball field, and yeah, there were a few recalls (verbal) that she didn't respond to. I either start clapping my hands, running away from her, and if that doesn't work walk calmly over (no eye contact) and get her. But of course, there is always the whistle....
The other day she took off, check cord dragging, after a bird. In my panic I whistled and she immediately aborted the chase and came running to me. But I have no illusions this will always be so.
So my advise would be, keep practicing the recall, on a check cord, always enforce it (but calmly, never punish a dog for not coming) and maybe introduce the whistle.
Tessa is 7 months old. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Rugergundog
Saginaw Michigan USA
MH
Posts:395
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| 02/02/2009 11:28 AM |
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I don't want this to come of sounding harsh. But remember you are not asking the dog to come back to you. You are demanding it!
At the stage of the game you are at you are from what it sounds ready for some discipline.
Each and every single time the dog compies.......reward, lots of pets and praise and hugs and baby talk and stuff....even a treat won't hurt.
Each and EVERY single time the dog does not comply there must be a consequence. You know your dog best so you decide if verbal is enough or if a physical restraint or little thump on the butt is whats needed.
Whatever you do though, keep your calm and think about your actions before you act.
As for tips i would work your dog back on a CC or in areas that you can recall her back from 20 feet with a treat....after a bit 50 feet, etc.
I too resorted to a EC after the initial lesson was in place with treats and praise. My dogs learned that when they get a good 20 yards from me i could not get to them quick so they would disobey..that is until Mr. Dogtra was put in place. All is good now and we don't even need the EC for recall. |
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Saginaw Michigan
Brittany- Ruger
GSP- Kilian |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 02/04/2009 7:57 PM |
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| Another trick I learned from my trainer: when teaching "come", reward it each and every time with three treats. No more, no less. Dog comes, it gets three treats one...two...three. Those can/should be little morsels, I use something that's easy to break up and soft. But it's important that it's three rewards. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7862
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NanVA
Posts:10
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| 02/05/2009 5:43 AM |
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Thanks much to everyone for offering thoughts and suggestions. I'm attempting to keep moving forward with Otto's training (just as a pet, not as a gun dog), but I have to admit, it's becoming very difficult. His mental processing has definitely moved into a different gear, and his is a completely different creature. He has become defiant in almost everything we do. When I ignore him, or require him to do something he doesn't want to do, he jumps up and nips at my hands.
Otto had been a good, quick learning puppy, where we had made great strides in teaching him to keep four feet on the floor and "no bite" plus the basic commands: sit, down, stay, come, recall, etc. But, everything changed drastically about a week ago. We have employed a trainer (gun dog and ATF dog trainer) and attended the first personal lesson a few days ago, where he taught us the proper way to use a choke chain collar. Both my husband and I have been practicing and critiquing each other to be sure we are using it properly, but Otto is escalating his defiance and the jumping and nipping is getting worse. We had been practicing the usual steps in displaying alpha status, such as going through doors first, eating first, etc., but we have definitely lost Otto's attention. He is completely consumed in what he wants.
I'm just lost with what to do next.
I'm frantic in trying to figure out what to do with Otto. I'm sure my lack of "centeredness" is evident to Otto, which is not helping. I've had the phone in my hand several times lately looking up the number for the Rescue group; but, something inside makes me put down the phone.
We have another personal training session on Sunday, so I am hoping that we can discover something that will help us improve.
Thanks again,
NanVA |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 02/05/2009 7:01 AM |
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Want my honest opinion? Well, I'll give it anyway.
Altho you feel you are being alpha and demanding obedience and enforcing rules, your heart really isn't in it. What I mean is - you are doing all this but still have in your mind to treat Otto fairly ans equally. I know it sounds a bit not nice but it's true. Animals mistake kindness for weakness.
(so do most people,BTW.) I'm not suggesting you be cold-hearted. Just decisivie. Really decisive. No really DOES mean NO! Otto is taking advantage and you have to understand why. What does he really think of you that he feels he can do what he is doing?
Who does he think he is - the BOSS?He certainly treats you as tho he is.
I was watching Cesar Milan yesterday and he gave a good tip. He said when the dog's behavior escalates from 0-5 you do nothing, when it goes from 5-10 you give correction, stronger then the behavior to catch the dog's attention.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 02/05/2009 7:02 AM |
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Otto is entering adolescence. His behaves exactly like my Tessa (7 months) and like my previous dog, Milka (the American Bulldog), did at that age. Milka actually progressed to the point where at age 12 months she deliberately bit down on my hand when I corrected her for unruly behavior on the leash. I could really watch her going from one level to the next in intensity. THAT was scary and very discouraging. I tried my best to move on, that's what dogs do, no grudges, but it was difficult and for a while felt very betrayed. We seeked professional advice immediately and they confirmed it was adolescent testing or seeking status behavior. Fortunately, with the help of the pinch collar and my best-timed and most efficient correction ever that put a priceless expression of surprise on her face, applied the next time she started to "escalate", took care of this. At that point she was also coming out of adolescence which helped.
What I want to say is, this phase is the most frustrating to many if not most dog owners. Because everything the dog has learned so far seems to have vanished, and anything you teach the dog now is not sinking in. So it seems. When in fact, it does. Your good dog is in there and he is learning, it's just going to be masked for a few months.
Have you ever wondered why a lot dogs in rescue are between 8 and 14 months of age? Adolescence! My theory, anyway.
So my advice is don't give up on this dog.
1. Keep training every day. He is still a tad young for formal obedience like the heel (I start that at 6 months) but work on the sit, down, stay, recall, and leash manners. I used a prong collar with Tessa at that age for leash manners because she was uncontrollable and it works. Be fair to the pup though, he is young, don't expect too much, keep sessions short and fun, and build up trust. When you give a command, make sure you can enforce it if needed. Don't pick a fight you can't win. I had days with Tessa when she was so wild that I knew I would be unable to keep her in a sit-stay so I didn't even ask her to. Other days she had moments when she was very compliant, and I ALWAYS use these, no matter where we were and what we were doing, to reiterate the more formal, restraint-type exercices (sit-stays, downs, etc). So I fine-tuned the training sessions a little, but the important thing is to keep at it. It will sink in, even if it doesn't seem like it. If you navigate adolescence correctly, once it passes, your perfect dog will emerge.
2. Never, ever give the dog ANYthing without him doing something to earn it. Make him sit, or down, or come, before feeding him, or giving him a treat, or playing with him. Make sure your timing is right. A treat always rewards the dog's action right before the treat. Meaning, if the dog sits, and you are too slow with the reward, and the dog gets up, then gets the treat, you are rewarding him for getting up from a sit.
3. My trainer always recommends to give adolescents a break. Try to understand what they are going through. It's an awkward age for them as well. Be patient. While teaching the dog that there are consequences for unwanted behavior, don't be overly harsh on him. Be fair, always.
Easier said than done, I know. I just enrolled in an advanced obedience class with my trainer of 20 years and will let you know if she has any more useful advice on how to get through this stage.
Good luck and keep us posted! |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 02/05/2009 7:13 AM |
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I second what Francine posted while I was writing up my post.
That's an interesting scale...
With Milka I had to watch for a certain level. I always called it level 1, 2, 3. I could tell from her eyes where she was at. It was absolutely imperative to correct her at level 2, and as Francince said, stronger than the behavior. Once she reached level 3 which was overdrive, it became very difficult to apply a correction stronger than the behavior, without getting hurt.
Not saying that Otto is going to give you that kind of trouble. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 02/05/2009 7:21 AM |
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Any dog that bit me or my family would out the door.Even a puppy. A dog is NOT supposed to bite. I don't consider teething and tugging biting. ) Any dog that so easily goes into that mode is a another bite waiting to happen. I don't have the time nor patience for poorly bred dogs.
If I stepped on any toes I apologize.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 02/05/2009 7:48 AM |
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No offense taken. As I said, I immediately had a professional take a look at the situation (the dog, myself, the dog and myself interacting) and it was addressed promptly. I never had any more issues with her. I am convinced it was a case of me being more of a pushover than I should have been with her. The years that followed were wonderful, and it would have been a terrible mistake had I euthanized her for that incident. Because that's what you really mean with "out the door", right? Can't pass on an unstable ill-bred dog to someone else...
I agree that a bite is a red flag but I also think that bites should be seen in context, and assessed by an experienced trainer, before euthanizing a dog.
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 02/05/2009 8:14 AM |
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We had a 75lb GSD female that was great but she avoided children. This showed she knew her tolerance level and stayed away from situations she could not handle. She would raise her lip to pushy kids and give a growl at times but held herself back.When I found out I was pregnant we had her put down. There was no way I could take a risk that she would hurt someone, a child. I could not trust that new owners would keep her and/or keep her way from children. She was a beautiful dog, we had several offers to take her. She was 5 years old. Her temperment was not sound. She never bit anyone and her obedience was near perfect with little training. But, she could not be trusted. My husband and I stil feel sad about the outcome and it has been 15 years.
I agree that sometimes people push their dog to far and the dog will do a snap at them but there is something about a dog that actually bites and punctures skin that rubs me the wrong way.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 02/05/2009 8:22 AM |
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To Milka's defense, she didn't puncture the skin, nor latch on, it was more like she was jumping up in the air, eye level, and coming down, looked at my hand and bit it and let go. No blood but it was bruised and painful for a while so not at all what I would consider a puppy nip.
Sorry to hear about your GSD, that's tough. If you could not trust her, then you did the right thing. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7862
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| 02/05/2009 11:38 AM |
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| The biting is one discussion and I think plenty has been said there, but I will agree with Tessa about the dog is now in adolescence. This is the period I have always described as the puppy stupids. It thankfully does not last very long, but it does seem that the dog has forgotten everything it ever learned. Not true. However, the frustration because of this to the handler/trainer can and does sometimes impact the way you train. It is very important to maintain consistency at this time. Continue your training just as you always did and don't get frustrated as this period does pass and no the dog hasn't forgotten everything. Just as with human teenagers these teenage dogs are testing boundaries. So, continue your training, don't be any harsher or change your approach. Give the command once, and if the dog doesn't respond then do what you would have done with them just a few weeks ago. Do not tolerate the bad behavior, but don't make more of it than it really is either. Talk to your trainer about what is happening and I am sure they will give you some things to work on. Also, don't forget that all work and no play makes for a very unhappy dog. Mix in play wherever you can and your pup will be much happier. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Bxr-Linda
Oregon
MH
Posts:171
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| 02/05/2009 12:36 PM |
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We're having recall problems with Bo too.
We've never had a dog that wouldn't basically come when called, and this is really frustrating to me. If we're out in the yard, the dogs have always been out with us, no problems.
One of my boxers would go exploring the neighborhood when she thought no one was watching her. But when we called, and/or went looking for her, she would come back.
Yesterday, I opened the front door to take Bo with me in the car. He has 100% of the time, jumped in the car. Before I could get the hatch open, he was off, running through the neighborhood!
I called and called for him. I finally see him running toward me --on the opposite side of the neighbor's fence. He comes toward me, then turns and runs the opposite direction! He acts like he is completely deaf! Doesn't even look up when he's being called.
He was out running around for over 1/2 an hour, and a neighbor brought him home.
Now, when he's on the lunge line, he'll come almost 100% of the time. When he's somewhere unfamiliar (in a field with my husband) or at the dog park, he's pretty good.
Around the house, he acts deaf.
I'm pretty confident *I* have a clue:
never scold or punish when he comes - coming to us should ALWAYS be positive.
Until it's learned, don't command "come," if you can't enforce it. If he's off-leash, I usually use, "come on, let's go, come here" or something else.
I guess just more on-leash work is needed. I really don't want a dog we can't trust outside the fence. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 02/05/2009 12:58 PM |
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The hunting breeds were bred to be bold, independent, cooperative and trainable. Problem is, they are smart and just when we think we have them trained 100%, they go ahead and show us how wrong we can be.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7862
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| 02/05/2009 1:14 PM |
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| Bxr-linda - That was the point when I got out the ecollar with my middle girl, Halo. She was good until she got off leash in an uncontrolled area. She knew I couldn't get to her so she bolted. Well all I had to do was call and reinforce with the ecollar one time and now I have a wonderful recall with Halo. She is very reliable. I have only had to put the ecollar on her one other time as a reinforcement. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Bxr-Linda
Oregon
MH
Posts:171
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| 02/05/2009 1:18 PM |
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My husband just bought an e-colllar a couple days ago. I'm hoping that will help.
In my mind, he'll obey when he has the e-collar on, but not when he doesn't. Does this seem to be the case, or does the collar seem to train the behavior? |
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