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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 07/16/2012 3:20 PM |
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Because I don't have a retriever
retreivers are bred to follow direction and use their eyes
I like smelly bumpers so the dog CAN find them
I want to create scenting conditions that encourage a dog to use its nose
After the shot work is important to me
All this retriever work is the iceing on the cake
Here's what happened this weekend -
I was working on gradient blinds
I was not concerned with accuracy on the send
Bregon's first response was to run to my son,who was placing the bumpers for us, but as he was going off the line he scented the bumper and went to it.
The next set I did bregon didn't go to my son - he knew my son was not on the line i sent him to and that he wouldn't find a retrieve there
So, using his nose saved the drill
no ned to correct the dog
and I was satisfied with the outcome
as far as hunting - it will be rare that you will be able to send a dog exactly to the bird - yes,maybe to the fall but what are the chances of the bird being there?
The dog will need to break out into a search - so I encourage use of nose
As far as training drills - look to yourself for answers
I am sure you are what's causing her to use her nose more than she needs to
Consider:
that once she has been to a pile she should not need to use her nose
she should be running with confidence to the known pile
a dog will only use its nose to FIND something
if you are sending a dog directly to a know location she doesn't have to find it
she should be able to SEE the pile
if she is being drawn to other bumpers off the cast you gave then that's a casting issue (handler) and the dog is confused,maybe the pile are too tight?
No problem - stop,cast again
I do wagon wheel drills and make the pile pretty tight
but i don't cast in order
i handle the dog
if I think he will not make the correct cast due to bumpers being too tight, i turn to another bumper
I want success
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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tgatto
Lake in the Hills, IL
MH
Posts:411
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| 07/16/2012 3:46 PM |
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Yes. That is exactly how Sadie runs her drills as well (zero-in on scent). I totally agree with your sentiments as well regarding pointing vs. retrievers - use the nose God gave you. Especially with upland hunting - birds rarely stay where they fall. Well said.
As I stated before, we are seeing gradual growth and improvement in her casts. She does better, and better each week. I have begun more use of the stop whistle, and she is building confidence. When I look at where I started with retrieving in November, I would say it has been quite successful. Alignment will be the thing we work on next. My goal there is accuracy vs. precision. I think there may be something to what you stated about piles being too close together. That could be the main thing I spoke of in the initial post. I am working to extend them. This morning, we worked back-casts out to about 100 yards. |
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It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 07/16/2012 7:24 PM |
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What we see is not necessarily what the dog sees.
We think the pile angles are clearly apart but to a dog they appear much tighter.
Too much use of stop may cause her to expect to be handled - a fear of most pointer folk. It's good to have her make several back casts with no stop.
The level you are at is impressive.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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tgatto
Lake in the Hills, IL
MH
Posts:411
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| 07/19/2012 12:44 PM |
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Yesterday morning I spaced the bumper piles out quite a ways more than normal. She did better, so I think it is what you mentioned, Francine - scent confusion on the cast. At this point, I have even more faith in her casting than I had previously - with some of the field-work, and spacing the piles out, along with running some patterns without dummies (which I don't plan on doing very often at all - no reward for the dog). I am totally looking forward to October (our opening day is October 20th)... and pictures  ... and video!! |
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It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 07/20/2012 5:09 AM |
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If a dog, or trainer, appears confused - simplify.
Simplifying and attrition have been my best friends when teaching concepts.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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tgatto
Lake in the Hills, IL
MH
Posts:411
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| 07/20/2012 9:03 AM |
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She was solid again this morning, so the distance seems to simplify things for her. She does tend to drift to the right (into the wind, although wind is primarily to our backs) when she starts on her initial send. I stop her eventually, and re-cast her if she is too far off. If she seems intent on one of the right piles, I cast her left to the other side of the pattern (per our conversation earlier in the thread).
During our single marks (done as kinda a fun-toss for her) I have started throwing in a blind or two. This looks like: Long throw Black/white, or White dummy, which she marks; Send to marked dummy, toss orange dummy(ies) in different direction; Receive Fetched mark, send on blind; cast as necessary to blind dummy. She does this very well now.
To my original post, the new dummies seem to be integrating well. She is drawn to them from farther, and farther away. Must have a larger scent cone now... |
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It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 07/20/2012 10:24 AM |
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I stop her eventually
stop her sooner, than later
on the blinds:
are you tossing when she is not looking? ( I think you are just confirming)
If she is doing well then I guess you can continue,
I transition to cold blinds with gradient blinds(to build confidence and momentum)
cold blinds can be confusing at first,altho, if you are doing this in the same area then it really is a memory blind, it's only a cold blind if it's in a new area
(does that make sense?)
http://www.nextgen-retriever.com/media/Article_Handling_Drills.pdf
http://www.gundogsupply.com/trainrettoha.html
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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tgatto
Lake in the Hills, IL
MH
Posts:411
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| 07/20/2012 11:04 AM |
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What I mean by "eventually" is when she is far enough off-line that it is aparent. I do it as soon as I realize it (which is "eventually" to me). I don't want to correct her path while she is still moving in generally the correct direction. Hope that clarifies my statement. It is what I meant by
...if she is too far off
I have noticed that she occasionally would "adjust" her path (turn, bend, or veer back toward the direction originally sent without prompting, or command), although with experience, I find her lining is better, hence there is less correction (prompted or otherwise) necessary.
Yes, I toss the orange (blind) bumper(s) when she is not looking. I have thrown as many as two after sending her after the initial mark (I have two orange dummies), but she is fast enough on the visiual mark that I don't think I would be able to do three. Actually, thinking about it, I think I could rotate the two orange bumpers - throwing to different locations as she is lining to the one in the field. I may try that a bit.
Thanks for the resources. I understand the concept of "gradient Blinds", or "Bird-Boy Blinds" as it were. Care to expound the "Cold" blind concept? Are these pre-placed in a field? |
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It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 07/20/2012 11:37 AM |
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cold blinds are blinds that the dog has no idea there is anything out there and it takes several casts to get the dog to the location. Blinds are ,usually, designed to show a dog's handling capabilities.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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