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provotrout
 JH Posts:30


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| 01/12/2012 8:04 PM |
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Started feeding Rudiger 7 cups a day. He's getting better at obedience every day as he adjusts to the new home. One very positive thing happened tonight, my brother came over with his four kids aged 7, 5, 3, 2months. He was very excited to meet and smell the youngins and was particularly happy to smell the baby. Despite the new people he never jumped or became too playful, and he let the kids pet him after an initial greeting. He even went up to my brother and immediately sat in front of him wagging his tail. Within a couple tries he shook my brother's hand and let him pet the top of his head.
Once acquainted with the new family members he came over to me and laid on my lap, seeking attention and assurance that he was being a good boy. A few treats and a lot of "good boys" later he retired to his bed in the laundry room and slept quietly through dinner. He made a very good impression on my brother's family, albeit under my watchful eye. So glad to have him as part of the family, can't wait to take him hiking this weekend.. he's going to have a blast. Planning to pick up some PP Performance tomorrow or saturday.
Thanks for the help in this thread and advice in others, it's very helpful as I go through the training process : ) Positive, consistent training, exercise and playful interaction on a regular basis have helped him make more progress than I'd ever expect from a rescue pup.
One question remaining is about Rudi's paws. They're huge! Is it common for GSPs to have large paws for running and balance? Or is it an indication that he has a good bit more growing to do? He'll be about 65lbs and lean once he gets the needed weight on, but his big feet are making me think he might grow another 10lbs. I'll try to get a pic of his paws, any insight in the meantime would be appreciated! |
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Splat Illinois (Northern)
 MH Posts:3136


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| 01/13/2012 5:37 AM |
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| Sounds like he did very well and that is a great achievement to have all those little kids around! |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4452


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| 01/13/2012 7:23 AM |
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I have 2 75lbers at home and they eat just under 4 cups a day of PP Performance. I do supplement with satin balls,ground flax,olive oil,venison bones and table food here and there. 6-7 cups may be pooped out rather than absorbed. Can you post height at the shoulder/withers and weight? Maybe a picture? Shorthairs are thin dogs - a very shapely breed.  |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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provotrout
 JH Posts:30


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juliej Kentucky
 MH Posts:113


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| 01/13/2012 9:55 PM |
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What a kind face! To me, his feet look totally normal. |
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Julie Aldo von der Raucherei |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7855


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| 01/13/2012 10:42 PM |
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| He and his paws look pretty normal to me for a shorthair. At 2 YO I doubt he will grow anymore, although he will probably fill out and put on some muscle over the next year. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4452


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| 01/15/2012 8:15 AM |
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Thanks for the video. His paws look proportionate to his body. I do think he can use about 2-5lbs. I know you just adopted him so I would consider the possibilty of worms that may be preventing him from gaining and maintaining weight- I would use a good wormer - one that contains fenbendazole. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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kpwlee Raleigh, NC
 MH Posts:998


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| 01/20/2012 1:32 PM |
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Honestly I don't think 34% protein is too high, the Blue Wilderness formulas are good. I feed Orijen fish which is 38/18 - the same company makes Acana foods and the grain free of those are cheaper and lower in protein (31/17 I think) Anyway I feed the above for several reasons - 1) we are limited by allergies; 2) I believe in feeding grain-free quality products; and 3) I actually feed much less of this than anything else I've tried so the high cost is offset by the fact the bag lasts longer. Admittedly I only have one dog but he eats a TON (especially for such a large 6 yr old neutered dog) if he didn't have allergies I would have more options but I am certainly pleased with the results from Orijen, Acana and Taste of the Wild - he does need to eat much more of the latter two to maintain though |
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It's Bugsy's world... http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4452


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| 01/20/2012 4:00 PM |
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I think the high protein will cause huge amounts of energy,if not spent can drive dog and human nutso. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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kpwlee Raleigh, NC
 MH Posts:998


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| 01/20/2012 5:42 PM |
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PB I've heard that before but for my particular beast his energy is much more even on the high protein grain free than on 'normal' stuff. A while back I saw that Innova had a red meat kibble that was OK for his allergies (sadly to all birds and eggs lol) and he was insane. He would have bursts of complete insanity and then crash. I know this may be unique to him As for the original poster I have to think that at 7 cups daily with little weight gain the dog isn't deriving the nutrients from the food and that it is passing through more undigested than one would want |
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It's Bugsy's world... http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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provotrout
 JH Posts:30


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| 01/20/2012 7:18 PM |
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Thanks for the additional feedback. Rudi is doing well on his new food and feeding regimen. The first week or so we fed him 4.5 - 5 cups a day and that's been up to 5.5 - 7 (usually 6) plus treats/rawhides over the past 10 - 14 days. He's putting on weight along the ridge of his back down to his tail, so it seems he's responding well to the increased food and shift to Pro Plan Performance. It makes him a little gassy so I may move him back to B.Buffalo fish & oatmeal once he gets to a healthy weight, but he's looking healthier and isn't losing anything in terms of energy. Given that his foster mom had him thoroughly tested and cared for prior to adoption I doubt he has worms. He has some worm medication in case so I'll give it to him if his weight becomes a problem again. He could probably stay at his current weight without serious problems but having a few more lbs should help keep him warm on winter hikes. I took him on his first long hike last weekend, going a little over 7 miles on a mountain loop in Shenandoah np. Having good experiences so far with recall I let him off leash for most of the time and he was running up the mountain, sniffing out mice then running back down trail to say hi before taking off up the trail again. Even with a few weeks of watching him exercise a lot it was surprising to see him simply run up a mountain 5 miles into a strenuous hike.. the dog has some amazing endurance. He finally started to slow down to a trot near the summit of a +2,500' rise, only to go right back to running down and back up during the descent. Going on a two day, 15 miler tomorrow so he'll be a tired pup come sunday afternoon! Training with walking on his harness, no furniture and basic obedience is going well with him responding better to daily paw cleaning and responding to back off neighboring dogs to come inside. |
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provotrout
 JH Posts:30


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| 01/20/2012 7:54 PM |
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Here's Rudi sleeping on his bed in the family room after the hike:

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provotrout
 JH Posts:30


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| 01/23/2012 7:13 PM |
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Good news and some unfavorable behavior from Rudi this past weekend. I took him on an overnight camping trip with my brother and got a ruffwear fleece coat to keep him warm. The coat did a great job of keeping him warm and didn't seem to chafe him. Recall worked well overall though we did lose him for about 2 hours during the hike down the mountain. He likes to sniff around and do the self hunt thing, which is fine by me since he gets a lot of exercise and is very good at returning to camp or returning to find me on trail. Occasionally he gets caught on a scent, virtually every time under fallen trees and he hangs out for a bit. If he's out of eyesight then he can get lost and rather than heading down trail he gets confused. The trend is for him to get back on trail and then head in the direction he thinks is right. The problem is that when I'm descending a trail he can get behind and get lost. After not hearing him with repeated calls my brother headed up trail and found Rudi sitting on the trail near where we camped (back up the trail >1mile). He was whimpering a bit and obviously scared at not being able to find us. We put him on leash the rest of the way and he had a good snooze in the car ride home. I need to do a better job of keeping tabs on him obviously, so that's something to work on going forward.
At home he was pretty grumpy towards Layla, my 13yo lab. She's pretty docile but was never given the proper training as a result of her calm behavior. Most times she doesn't listen it's pretty benign and we've admittedly given her a lot of leeway. She likes to nudge the door when Rudi is feeding and we make sure they're separated during feeding since they're both sensitive about food theft. When Layla tried to steal his rawhide he basically attacked her. I immediately broke it up and got Rudi to sit after giving verbal and collar corrections. Shortly after that Layla ventured back to his bed, which Rudi met with a pretty aggressive response.
With the situation pretty tense between the two I immediately gave Rudi a collar correction and took him to the laundry room and put his bed under the couch. He was calm the rest of the night and slept most of today, likely tired from backpacking. I read a lengthy article on territorial aggression and am taking a more disciplined approach to work on his aggression. After work I made him sit and keep a distance for half an hour, then initiated playing with a squeaky toy and some treats for sitting, shaking and laying down. He cried a bit when I didn't respond to his initial requests for attention and only engaged him after he calmed down and rested. After playing I took him on a 1.5mile walk with two leashes, a pinch around his neck for heel corrections and a front point harness to help keep him at my side or behind, which worked very well. He goes through doorways after me every time and sits before crossing any streets, stepping onto the cross street after me.
He can be pretty sensitive to corrections so I'm working on using the appropriate tone and force that communicate the importance of listening without making him afraid.. it's a fine line but it seems like a very important thing to get a command of. The aggression seems like a very manageable issue with the correct training, but it's clear he still needs to be carefully trained and allowed time and space to feel comfortable in his new home. The site I've been reading is http://leerburg.com/dominantdogs.htm. If you have any advice or comments on Leerburg's approach please share 
Here's a video of him coming back to camp after a morning jaunt:
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7855


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| 01/23/2012 8:40 PM |
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| Sounds like you have made some good progress. Also sounds like you are getting things under control. Keep up the good work. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4452


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| 01/24/2012 4:49 AM |
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I would recommend not using the collar to control/correct aggressive behaviors. If you can not take control as human then you need to assess your position as leader. A good exercise is to sit them next to each other,doesn't matter who is in front or closer to you - let them decide the sitting arrangements, then hand feed them treats. When things are going well,maybe after a few days, offer a treat to one of them and have it drop - make sure no one moves for it or eats it until you pick it and offer again. After things are going well, not offering treats to any particuar dog,but having them wait,drop/toss treats and say one dog's name for that dog to get it and eat it. Rudi is lucky to have you |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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smatulewicz Michigan
 MH Posts:1197


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| 01/24/2012 7:31 AM |
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Rudi sounds like my nephew dog (a Vizsla). He is sweet good natured boy, but very sensitive. When he tires, he gets very crabby. Possessive of his toys and his rest spot. He will growl in discontent if bothered while resting. Their course of action when he does this is to remove him from whatever he is resting on (usually the couch) so I was Goin to recommend the. I furniture thing... That is your space as pack leader. We are trying to teach our pup she can only come on couch when invites and do not allow her on our bed (we need her to prefer her kennel to sleep at night and introducing her to our bed would be unfair and is our space as leaders). She now will come out her chin in the couch when we are there after she tires from playing and "ask" by looking to be asked up. My nephew dog unfortunately has never gotten over toy and food aggression despite positive training. With out own pup, we practice "trade up" if we need to take something from her. For instance, if he is crabby at your other dog over a particular toy, remove it from both but replace with something they each can have. I would also suggest walking them together if you are not. I realize you are training Rudi and may be taking him alone as a result, but perhaps recruit someone to walk with you who so you can focus in Rudi but all are walking together. Or after Rudi has tired some and walking well at heel, swing back by the house and pick up your other pup for the final laps. This is great pack bonding. By the way, I imagine his extra grumpiness was due to being worn out from his trip, maybe next time you know he will be worn out, let him rest and keep the other pup at a distance as to not set him up to fail. He may be learning his place with you, but the dogs are more than likely still figuring out the order between them. Sounds like you are on top of things and making great progress, and giving him a home he can be happy and stable in! |
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provotrout
 JH Posts:30


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| 01/24/2012 8:55 AM |
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thanks for the feedback. He's definitely sensitive at times, particularly when tired. Lots of good suggestions above, walking with Layla for the latter part of walks is a great idea. They're usually walked at different times as he needs longer trips and I'm working on training a lot during walks. It makes a lot of sense that exercising more with Layla will help them bond. The treat thing will be a good exercise, thanks. |
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kpwlee Raleigh, NC
 MH Posts:998


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| 01/24/2012 9:53 AM |
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gosh this is the recent addition rescued GSP that was severely underweight? I am totally not surprised he was aggressive about a rawhide. As someone else mentioned probably setting him up to succeed would be a better approach than setting up a situation with TWO food aggressive dogs which was logically going to fail. Glad you are working on things but personally I wouldn't be using a ton of force with him (prong corrections etc) especially since you say he can be sensitive to corrections. I am a huge proponent of teaching a dog what I want them to know/do rather than punishing them for what you perceive as incorrect. BTW from what you say he doesn't sound dominant to me - food aggression rarely is - it is much more often a frightened dog or one that worries about where their next meal is coming from. Dominant and confident dogs don't worry about that, they know they can have the food if they want it. I urge you to go a little slower, be a little more sensitive to the fact he is a rescue (known or unknown history?), build his trust and confidence that he has a safe home with plenty of food and protection from your other food guarding dog, and someplace that when he is exhausted he can rest without worry. Way too often humans use force and punishment in order to get a dog to submit in return their nervous & fearful dog becomes more so and then uses aggression because that is all that is left to defend itself. Build his trust, show him he is safe and doesn't need to defend himself or protect his food and I am sure his so-called aggression will disappear. Somewhere I read to be a benevolent leader and I think that is just perfect |
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It's Bugsy's world... http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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provotrout
 JH Posts:30


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| 01/24/2012 10:54 AM |
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With force I only use what's needed to get his attention (no hitting under any circumstance). An example - if we're walking and he tries to stop to sniff I'll move his neck/chest away with a foot and say "come" in a normal tone, which is very effective and doesn't seem to bother him at all. With the fighting I lift his front paws of the ground with a collar correction and say "hey" or "no" and lead him to a back room with a bed, being careful not to drag or physically overpower him, aka humiliate him. He has a regular leather/mesh collar with no prongs. His training outside is with a front point easy walk harness that doesn't pinch his neck or cut off air.. I'm not a big fan of the prong collars and neck pinching - probably in the minority amoung dog owners but I prefer a harness that gets the point across without putting pressure on the neck (maybe this is an oversight on my part?). These seem to be fair and needed responses to behavior that isn't desired. Despite being lean he is strong and muscular, so he can be a lot to handle. Definitely a fine line between cooling tensions and reinforcing his fear/insecurity. Not everyone in the family is as in tune with him so I've been steadily adding to the rules of handling him (be fair, no physical striking, not overdoing verbal corrections, etc.).
Just recently I'm getting to understand how he is insecure at times (though not generally - he's usually upbeat and confident with other dogs and around the house). So to help put him at ease I end a discipline session with basic commands, sit and shake, followed by a treat, shoulder rub and verbal praise. That seems to get him comfortable again. For the next few months and possibly longer, full separation when eating rawhides or longer lasting treats like a kong will be followed.
Layla has always gotten on my nerves when she's ornery and unruly so I can see his point of view being still on the lean side and adjusting to his new home. With appropriate corrections and reassurance I'm optimistic that he'll continue to integrate well with the family. And after long hikes he'll be given plenty of food/water and a safe place to rest.. that's something that I'm new to but can easily make sure he gets a safe place with the things he needs to be comfortable.
Again thanks for the input. He's a smart dog with a more complex personality and he'll need a sensitive training/integration period followed by consistent handling. |
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kpwlee Raleigh, NC
 MH Posts:998


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| 01/24/2012 6:56 PM |
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| That sounds great, be patient he sounds like he is going to be awesome |
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It's Bugsy's world... http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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