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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 12/13/2011 8:10 AM |
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I started reading a book called “The Training and Care of the Versatile Hunting Dog” by Sigbot and Edward D. Bailey. My GF’s boss recommended it to my GF for me to read. I’m not sure if any of you have read this book. From what I’m seeing is it may be a bit old and outdated, but maybe I’m wrong?
In the book the describe the down position as the dog lying down with it head in-between his paws. To accomplish this you are to help the dog in to the down position and use pressure to push the head down between the paws while using pressure on the back at the kidneys which prevents the dog from lifting their back. Then you add the command. The next step is to have the dog go in to the down position at your side. To do this you have to have the dog sit next to you attach the lead and run it under your left foot. Give the command “down” and tug up on the lead pulling the dog down into the down position.
To book says that you’re supposed to be able to get your dog to stay in this position for 5 min, and much like a “whoa” you are supposed to be able to step over the dog, toss items, talk all with the dog not moving or lifting their head.
The question is, is this the method you would use for down, and do you have another method? I think the benefit of having your dog in this position outweighs the method used because the dog is in a state where the only thing that matters is the next command (dog can’t move, lift or turn their head).
I have already thought “down”, but with the down I taught was as long as the chest touches and the back portion is down, that was good. Head could be up and looking around. Any thoughts on this? And how hard would this be to change?
Thanks! |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 12/13/2011 8:47 AM |
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This is the old way to teach down. I actually teach it differently with no pressure on the dog. I use a reward (food) and move it down from their nose and up under the chest and hold it there. The dog almost always will move their nose down and in order to get back to the food they have to lay down. The moment they are down they get the food. If they do not lay down I close my hand so they cannot get the food until they are down. As far as the actual position you want them in for the down, that depends on what your next command will be. When I teach the down stay I start with the method I described above, but once they are down I will reach over and push their butt over. If they choose to put their head down too that is a bonus, but I do not require. The idea here is if the butt is tipped over and the head is down they are less likely to get up. With young dogs it is very hard for them to succeed if you want their head down and I don't feel it is really necessary. I just require them to stay. I have found with confidence and maturity they automatically put their head down anyway. The 5 minutes is the time that is required in competition, but I actually work to much longer than that. I also vary the amount of time required because dogs do learn to tell time. If you always stop at the same amount of time they will learn that and anticipate and get up.
The other down I teach is the down without the butt tipped over, but ready for the next command. I use this on the drop on recall. That is an advance command for open obedience competitions. In this one you call the dog to you and then drop them before they get back to you. They then stay in the down until you call them to you again. It is a command that gives many dogs a hard time because you are changing your command mid way through an exercise.
Let me know if you have any more questions. IMHO I would read the book that was given to you as you might get some good nuggets out of it, but remember that it is an old school book that use more force than is typically used today. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/13/2011 8:56 AM |
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I don't think the book is outdated, well maybe a little. I like the methods in the book. I teach my dogs paws between the feet,chin on the ground. In one of the videos I posted in another thread my dogs are put in this down position and I walk off to fire shots. If a dog raises their head it's acceptable,but if the dog sits it's not,my thinking is - the first step is to raise the head from this position,from the position you teach the first step is to sit. I don't want my dogs sitting.
I have used this down position as a correction for chasing after a point has been established. It worked great but I would not recommend it for every dog.
This position is the most submissive. I want this, it gives me the most control when I need it.
Food can be used to get the dog to down - lure the dog into a down. Food will not keep a high prey drive dog in this postiion with gunfire and ducks being heard falling in the water or beaters coming thru the brush. I'll take a raised head but I said down and I mean down - it can mean the difference between a dead dog and live dog.
Now, down does not need to be taught. A solid sit will work just fine.
Down is traditionally a German obedience command that serves a useful purpose. They use the word HALT! German dogs are on a whole are very high prey and dominant, esp when in prey drive. A "lot of dog" needs a strong handler.
Of course, my opinions only.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 12/13/2011 10:39 AM |
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Texas-
That’s currently what I have Dexter doing now, with an answer to a hand signal as well. I was looking to have a down command where for example having the dog stop and drop while walking or running and be in a completely submissive/obedient position, generally that’s what I want to accomplish. I’m trying to really head into the obedience training as, I believe, I have been slacking. I think the part I’m going to have the most trouble with is getting the dog to stop what he’s doing and obey the command. I have tried doing this with “sit” but haven’t been able to get him to consistently do it at a distance.
Pixie-
Could you share your video again? I’d really like to see it. I agree the “sit” could work well, but I think I’m looking for a down because I’m assuming that it will be easier to correct when you see the dog start to move and the sit seems like it would be too easy for the dog to take off. Also I agree that this could be the difference between a live dog and a dead dog. That is the main reason I want to teach this command.
Texas and Pixie-
You guys consistently give good advice, and have helped me tons with training. Thank you!
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 12/13/2011 10:40 AM |
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| So let me clarify about my down. Food is used to reward, but you must also proof and reward to keep the dog down even when other things are going on around. Likewise, I teach my dogs to drop wherever and to stay dropped until I call them too me. As I said, the drop on recall is hard because you change the command midway on the dog. Both need to be proofed. If proofing is done well your dog will stay no matter what is going on around them. Again, the proofing for my dogs is a game. If they stay down, they win and get a reward. If not, I win. The game works well with my dogs and I do not have problems with my dogs moving out of the down even when I am totally out of sight and there are things going on around them that are interesting (and yes they do have an incredibly strong prey drive). It takes some time to get to this level as out of sight puts a whole different level of pressure on the dogs and some handle it better than others, but since I compete this is the level I work to with my dogs. The ultimate is to be able to leave my dogs for longer than 5 minutes in any circumstance while I am totally out of sight. Additionally, I must be able to drop my dogs after I call them to me again in every environment. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 12/13/2011 10:50 AM |
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Remind me how old your dog is currently? So, if you plan on competing in obedience you want to teach the down and not progress to the drop until you have finished competing at the first level of obedience (called Novice). The drop almost always confuses the dog and you go through a period of uncertainty with them that can mess you up if you are competing at the Novice level. Not worth the risk. However, if you are not competing, it doesn't really matter.
As for teaching, you need to keep you dog on leash while teaching the concepts so that you can easily get to them and help them if they do not do what you ask on the very first time you give a command. Never ever repeat a command. Say it and expect it. I don't take mine off leash until they can do what I want on leash with lots of distractions. Then I move to off leash and a controlled environment. The time to get to this varies depending on the dog and the amount of time you invest. If the dog messes up I back up in my training.
"I’m trying to really head into the obedience training as, I believe, I have been slacking. I think the part I’m going to have the most trouble with is getting the dog to stop what he’s doing and obey the command. I have tried doing this with “sit” but haven’t been able to get him to consistently do it at a distance. "
This means you have progressed too far, too fast and need to back up in your training. Put your dog back on a leash so you can correct him.
A good obedience book is Beyond Basic Dog Training by Diane L. Bauman. She gives good methods for teaching and proofing. This if for competition obedience, but her methods are solid and you can pick and choose what you want to use. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/13/2011 11:49 AM |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/13/2011 11:49 AM |
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double |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 12/13/2011 11:51 AM |
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Dexter is almost 8mo now. I hope I don’t have too much expectation for him for that age?
As of now I’m not really thinking about competition, but to have a dog that understands and listens well. Although I’m not leaving it out for future for either obedience, or field later on in the future.
Currently I can get him to sit at my side on command. If he’s really distracted (ie another dog is there), I start to really struggle with it. How do you do your transition from at your side, to walking, to at a distance?
I’ll look into the book. I was going to order Dog Obedience Training by Ross Allan this week, have you heard/read this book, and do you know how that compare? I took a look at the description to Beyond basic dog training by Diane L. Bauman and they seem really similar.
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 12/13/2011 12:23 PM |
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Pixie-
Thanks for sharing. Pretty impressive stuff! That’s cool that your dog went right back into the chin being down after hearing the shot.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/13/2011 12:46 PM |
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Haiko is a good boy but not as good as his brother who did not lift his head.
They could not see me and I could barely see them, but I'm sure they could hear me fiddling with the cap gun. The first shot wouldn't fire,I pulled the trigger about 8 times and they heard all the clicking so I had to use my leatherman to straighten the pin, then the second shot wouldn't fire, again a lot of clicking.
Training becomes a drill and I think that's why he lowered his head. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 12/13/2011 2:04 PM |
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| It stinks when equipment doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to, but finding a way to make it work always helps. None the less, they looked pretty good. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 12/13/2011 2:59 PM |
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A couple of comments: 1) At months your pup will still be focused challenged, so I would work focus as a separate exercise. You need to keep him focused on you, or at least aware of you. Distractions are still going to be tough for him. I would encourage you to mix up his rewards and make it exciting. So use toys, treats, whatever you can think of as a reward. 2) Sounds to me like Dexter is not ready to work away from you at least in areas that are distracting. So, I would go back to working in a boring room or yard. Keep him on a leash so you can correct him.Add distractions in in the controlled environment as he gets better and understands what you are asking. Also be sure and reward when he does things correctly. At 8 months he is still a baby and he is also at the age where he will go through a period of challenging you. I call it the puppy stupids and often you wonder what happened to your smart puppy. Just keep working and he will in a few months grow out of it. 3) As for transitioning to distance, your dog needs to have a solid down at your side first. I typically don't introduce the drop until they are at least a year and a half and often older. I do start playing the drop game in a quiet room with them where I asked them to down, and as soon as they down I toss a treat too them. I then release them with my release word and ask them to down again and the minute they are down toss the treat. This gets them working away from you with the drop and it is fun for the dog. They also will get faster and faster at the drop as they know the sooner they drop the sooner they get the treat. If you haven't trained a release word, you should. My release word is "play." Allot of folks use OK, but I don't like that as it is a very common word and I have seen folks accidentally release their dog.
Another game I play with my dog that helps solidify the down and sit stays is to put them in a sit or down and walk away leading with both my left and right foot. Many dogs at first will automatically get up to follow. Just put the dog back in the sit or down and reinforce the stay. Once they catch on that they are only to get up on release I then try to trick them, but no cheating on my part. Have to play fair. One of the things I will do is give other words, but not the release word. At first the words are no where close in sound to my release word, later on I use words that sound similar. I also will gently pull on the leash. Once they understand the sit and down they will resist the pull. They also start paying closer attention when you start playing the word game so it helps with focus. You can use the word game in lots of ways and my dogs love the game. They sit and listen and anticipate and when the mess up, they no it. I just say oops and put them back. Often they get so into the game they will go right back to where they were on their own and we start the game again.
I like all this kind of proofing because it makes the dog think and listen. Mixing up exercises once they understand a command really reinforces. For go outs or retrieves I will put the object in all kinds of weird places. It is amazing as dogs are so context sensitive. So it you always toss an object out try putting that same object on a ledge or table or somewhere out of context. The dogs will often struggle finding the object and stand there asking for help, even if they see where you put it. The first times you do this you may have to help the dog, but once they catch on they will start to understand that the object may not be in context and they will think it through and find the objects. This is not a tracking exercise, but more of a problem solving exercise. Tracking I teach very differently with drags and using scent. Anyway this is the fun part of training where you get to be creative and the dogs really get into it because they are so smart. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 12/13/2011 3:00 PM |
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| Forgot to mention, I have not read the Ross Allen book, but will see about getting a copy and reading it. I ready a wide variety of training books and am always looking for new training ideas and methods. Will let you know what I think after I have read the book. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/13/2011 3:18 PM |
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I teach the down at around 4 months old but I can't remember at what age they were performing like the video.
I go to solms before 18 months old so I would have to say my best guess is around 13 months old.
So,in the video they have performed this task many,many times over years.
(they better know the rules)
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 12/14/2011 1:29 PM |
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Thanks Tex for the advice.
Yes his focus is pretty short and I still try to make the sessions about 10 min or so. I found that he really likes the “find it” game, but currently he’s only doing it with his kibble. How do you transition from kibble to the toys? I found that this game helps with discipline and helps to gain patience because he has to sit stay.
I like the idea of not being released from the sit until told to. Currently he sits, but can do whatever I have been using “OK”, but I like your release of “play”. I know some people use “free”, but I thought that sounded stupid so I didn’t want to use that one. How hard do you think it would be to change my release word? I’m sure it would cause some confusion for the dog.
I’ll work more on down at my side, with walking away. I like that idea and I think it will help. Also, I think I’m going to give the chin down a try. I think that may help a lot.
I’m not under any impression that any issues or learning will occur over night, and that training is an ongoing process… but sometimes you just wish it would go faster
I do think I’m going to need a good obedience book. I took a look at some of the customer reviews and I think I might give the book “Dog Obedience Training” by Ross Allan a try, I’ll for sure let you know what I think of the book after I’m done. Do you know of any good websites that have good free obedience training video’s that might help?
I was planning on taking a few days off over Christmas, where I was planning on doing some more training. Should I teach “whoa” to him (weather permitting, it gets cold in MN) during that time, or just keep hitting the basics (sit, down, come, heel, stay) until he has a real solid foundation?
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/14/2011 4:41 PM |
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| Stay is whoa. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 12/14/2011 4:58 PM |
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Changing your release word should not be that hard. Just start with saying Ok, play and then fade the OK. I would not think it would take very long at all. He may still release on OK after you transition. Just remember you taught that release and try not to use the word OK.
I ordered the Ross Allan book, and play to read it over the holidays, so we can compare notes.
pixie posted this link in another thread on the leerburg method of dog training. I have watched several of the videos and these are good.
And pixie is right about whoa and stay. Same outcome, different command word. I use whoa with my boy, Ringo, both in the field and in obedience competition for both the stand and the walking stand. However, I still use stay for the sits and downs. Just me being quirky. Whoa would work there too. I also have a wait command that means you need to stay, but expect another command to come soon. This is used for the drop on recall. I was having problems with Halo on the drop on recall and it was because I was asking her to stay which in her mind was stay until released. It confused her when I gave her another command. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/15/2011 7:20 AM |
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From the down I rarely call my dogs too me. The usual is to walk over and command sit, as in the video. I try and keep commands simple - too many words and I find myself using the wrong ones - and I'm the educated member of the pack!
I use commands all day long - not just something we do on occasion - my philospophy in dog training is that this is who we are, not what we do. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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