So, quick question about training with Force Fetch and experience with birds...

I have begun training on Force-fetch (been at it about 3 weeks).  Sadie is progressing nicely - she will hold on command, and heel (amongst all other commands - sit, whoa, come, +whistle (whoa and come), around the neighborhood with a dummy in her mouth, and release on command.  We are into the Force-fetch part of the training and she has hit the perverbial wall - opens her mouth and starts to reach for dummy, but won't get all the way to the ground, instead backs away with the ear-pinch (still on ear-pinch).

My issue is that I have hunts scheduled for 2 upcoming  weekends (11/25 and possibly 12/3), and I am reluctant to give up time on live birds with her.  So, my question is: how do I handle birds shot over her during these hunts?  Do I put aside the FF training in the field, or take advantage of it?  If she does retrieve (she did not on her first hunt), do I enforce the Hold?  I am thinking that I should not at this point, but I wanted to get some thoughts from some more experienced people in FF.

Thanks All!

Thanks for the quick response, Pixie Bee.  I would say that, yes, she does reach for and take the dummy not on the ground - even before I apply pressure, although I will make sure I am not making the common mistake you mention - "move the dummy just a little, teen-weeny bit".  Could you expand on your comment, "Don't continue until you come up with a solution"? 

If she is not rock-solid picking up birds on command, I will just let the hunt be a fun time of finding birds - no problem there!  I want to be sure that she progresses.  It is the long-term goal of a solid retrieving gun-dog that I am interested in. Thanks for the input!

Fortunately (or unfortunately) - just as I am thinking - during play, and training, I have taught her to whoa, until I release her (for safety, to stay out of line of low-flying birds).  Her release word is, "Fetch".  Should I change this up during our play-time the next couple of days/weeks considering the above, or will I just have to re-train if I do that?

I would not see a problem taking her on hunts, but absolutly canot expect anything on her retrieves until completly finished with the FF training.  Just stay with it gradually and just do not try to rush it because of a time line.

I re-read your posts -

This confused me:

when you give the fetch command are you applying the ear pinch at the same time?

Before I teach 'off the ground'  I begin having the dog fetch at lower levels until it's on the ground with my hand still on it,w/o ear pinch.
 I then repeat each level with ear pinch.

I am thinking you have moved to the ground to quickly for her.

If she is reaching for the dummy,with the ear pinch,but then backs away she is confused.

She understands fetch,she does not quite understand the pressure/force concept,yet.

Thanks so much for all the input - definately a tricky subject with lots of oppinions!  Just to provide an update:  Yesterday night I took into account what Pixie Bee suggested - ensuring that I was not adjusting the dummy for Sadie un-intentionally.  I also changed-up my position of the dummy - above her head, and to the right, and left.  She most definately lunged, and grabbed the dummy more aggressively by the end of the training session last night upon the command of Fetch.  I think holding the dummy slightly above her head was the best solution - when she would shy away, it would increase the ear-pinch pressure, when she moved toward it, it would decrease.  I also could be more confident I wasn't adjusting, or moving the dummy (if anything, it would make me move it slightly away from her as she went toward it.

This morning, she was picking the dummy up off of my hand on the ground  after I told her to Fetch (PROGRESS!).  Here, I was absolutely certain I wasn't moving at all (my hand stayed in contact with the ground).  She even took a couple of steps eagerly to get to the dummy once (we stopped there on success).  Moral of the story here is PLANNED PATIENCE (and a patient plan - to PB point).  I will keep everyone updated.  Great input that has helped!

As to the birds, I will have to take the opinions here under advisement.  I haven't stopped her field-work at all (although admittedly there aren't a lot of birds in Suburbia!), so I am not sure how finding birds can affect FF training if I can remove Hold/Fetch from her pointing birds.

Finally, with Play Fetch I think it is different as well.  We have always played with the tennis ball, so I have a different "toy".  I just probably need some separation from commands.  Last night I told her to "Go!" instead of "Fetch", and she played as eagerly as ever.  Long-term plan would be to "Go Fetch" after FF is completed (worse case, otherwise just "Fetch" would probably be OK).

PB:  Sorry - we must have been posting at the same time.  What I meant, is that after a period of time of applying pressure before, or during the command, she would do it without pressure (I would delay pressure slightly) to see where she was at, as well as to let her experience that she could do the command to escape the pressure applied.  Looking back, she was lunging, but wasn't really taking the dummy - which she improved upon in the last two sessions - and I may have been moving the dummy as well. 

I am using Dobbs - TriTronics Retriever Training.  I have looked at Evan Graham You Tube Videos, and some of his posts/blogs/articles online as well (another popular resource) - the techniques seem pretty consistent.

What I meant about holding the dummy up, and associated pressure was that when she shys, there is a natural tendency to increase pressure, vs. when she comes toward the dummy (consistent to decreased) - not that I reduced the pressure as she came toward the dummy (at least not consciously ).

She is moving along, although not as quickly as I expected (is it ever?).  She is moving at her own pace - and that is good enough for me.  I just need to adjust my expectations to her, instead of expecting her to adjust to me.  By the same token, I do not want to stagnate too long on a concept short of the ultimate objective (reliable retrieving) - that can create problems as well.

I agree!  It is in-depth and I would like to hear other's input on my issues (and others) as well.

Hey back to my original question about the birds:

If "Fetch" is out during the next hunts (provided Sadie is not there yet), is there any foreseeable issue with having her "Hold" a bird shortly after the hunt.  Thought being that being in "suburbia" where birds are a rareity, and knowing how well she is doing with "Hold", would she benefit from a brief training session - like in the parking lot - with a "fresh" bird?  Any possible foreseeable negative side-effects?  I do plan on bringing one home (much to my wife's future dismay ) to freeze and work with, but a Frozen bird is different from a fresh bird.  Then again, maybe it is better to start with frozen?

Thoughts?

 

Update:  Last night Sadie picked up the dummy without my hand on it.  She seemed to "get it".  We ended the session when she traveled the length of the table (about 4 feet) and picked up the dummy (wiith ear-pinch).  This morning she was running 8 - 10 feet (short toss) to pick up the dummy (with me along-side) upon command.  A little sloppy still, but the desire is there, and I think the sloppiness is more her testing if pressure will be released.  I would only remove pressure when she would get the dummy off of the ground and firmly in her mouth (she would initially try to lay down and mouth it, not really hold it firmly otherwise).  She is doing a 2 X 12" Canvas dummy reliably and a 3 X 12" plastic dummy (little more challenging), although the plastic is a little less reliable.  Both ways there was a lot less hesitation (duh) than at the beginning of this thread, and I could see that she definately understood that pressure would be released when she picked up the dummy.

ACH!  You mean actually use...  TECHNOLOGY?!?!?

I don't know if I can produce an appropriate video, let alone post it ...  I will try.  Will probably take me a couple of days - my training sessions are early in the morning and late at night during the week (not a lot of light).  I will see what I can do this weekend.

I also wanted to post a couple of resources I have found useful (ok, maybe a little pre-mature as I am not completed with FF... yet...).  As previously stated, I used Dobbs TriTronics Retriever Training Book (more due to availability and cost -it is an older reference(1993)).  SmartFetch by Evan Graham was also high on my list as it is a focused reference and available with DVDs that I am told are extremely useful.

dobbsdogs.com/library/pointing/index.html (Technique I am using - Dobbs posted a bunch of articles online that are similar to the TriTronics Retriever book I have used).

www.rushcreekpress.com/ (Resource on Evan Graham Smartfetch that was somewhat helpful)

www.youtube.com/watch (YouTube video on FF by Evan Graham - he also has others that were useful - this is just one).  Evan Graham is also on an online gun dog forum as well (where I got the link).