I need some ideas about exercising my almost 11month dog who is being a knucklehead, and lost his right to run at large for the very moment.I've got the independence part of the gun dog equation covered in excess.

Or maybe I need advice on how to get the knucklehead's recall back to being rock solid when he's out of sight and ranging at 2-300 yards. He's collar conditioned, and works well within 100 or so yards, but then he hits another gear and he's off to the races. 

Either way, I don't have a garmin (yet) and Cooper's new found adolenscent "listening" is making me a little nervous because of his long range tendencies... especially if he's "going deaf". His recall is great in my yard and on football fields (city folks), but we get out to the training grounds where there's no fences and off the check cord and nothin!  I don't have a horse or ATV to keep up with him, and we can use those at the grounds cause they are classified as a conseervation area anyway. I don't think that it's doing any good to nic him or use the collar if I can't tell when he's coming back or tuning me out.  

Apparently, I really needed to vent a little, too.    Any and all suggestions of  1. tiring this pup out without compromising his growing body  2. Field recall drills

Thanks in advance.

-Cheryl

 ps. this is the same dog who wore a spider costume and went trick or treating for 2 hours last night, so he IS a good boy, and I do love him 99% of the time

Thanks Pixie.

I posted this on another board and got a lot of folks telling me to get rid of the dog if I couldn't handle him and other super negative things, so I took it down. I don't want to get rid of the dog, I just want to kill him sometimes

He is fairly obedient, but I wouldn't bet my house on them anymore since he's hit puberty. LOL. I could definitely stand to reenforce them a bit more to make sure he knows that we're not playing and he has to listen.

I do not want to limit his range at this point just because i'm not 100% comfortable right now. I just need to work on the e-collar commands, too, though, cause he's blasting thru it if he doesn't want to listen.

I feel like I'm toying with a fine line of getting him to listen and too much handling?  He is young and I want to be a bit lenient, but we're only talking about recall. I guess I feel like a dog at any age better come back when called.

He is most definitely hunting for himself and couldn't really care what I'm doing at this point, and that's why we are on a bird hiatus (sp).

One last question: What's the order for whistle overlay with the collar?  Collar then whistle?  I'm not a big whistle person but I am working on whistle training because there's only so far my voice carries. I'm overlaying my voice commands and won't start working in the collar until he's got it, but I'm just double checking the order.

Are you sure he knows what the stim means? Have you specifically conditioned he to know what the correction means?

- I thought the answer was yes until a few days ago when he was running and totally blowing me off at a 5. Obvious sign that he either isn't sure what it means or is sure he doesn't have to respond to it. I'm thinking that he's got a date with a 100' cord and the open field at the training grounds.  I haven't really worked on closer range stuff before like bending and retrieving out there because I hadn't had any recall issues and that's our place too RUN!!!! The issue with the big runs is that our training grounds are not wide open aside from one large but slightly tall grassed field so after 30 seconds he's out of sight.

We definitely need to work on the whoa-ing while moving. I was diligent about the whoa post and whoa-ing on a check cord for a while, but admittedly have gotten lax. I'd be lucky to win a $5 bet on his whoa now.

He fetches well at this point in the yard and in water, haven't really done drills in the field, but I plan on doing a force fetch once needed for broke work in the field trials. I figure some time next year as we're still running in puppies now and have all of next fall to run Derby.

How to I get him back? He comes back to me. The other day was the first day that I felt he was being a total jerk and ignoring me. I could hear his bell sometimes (100-200yds), so I know he could hear me (I'm loud and it was a clear day), and he didn't come find me. Before that, the only times that he didn't find me was when he was chasing birds (yes, chasing not pointing- whole different story). In retrospect, though, over the last month, he's been a little slower to return to me and check in once commanded. He's not hopeless, I've just let him get a wee bit too independent at the training grounds and he thinks he can just do whatever he wants.

I have to agree with everything Pixie Bee and Texas Belle said - focus on Obedience.  I would add that it is important that (initially) the dog is not really given an option to "not comply".  Breaking would seem to indicate that you should go back and enforce the basics again - especially in the area that the dog broke, and would not listen to commands.  In this case, it would be back on the leash, and work Sit, Whoa, Heel, and Come (incorporating whistle where appropriate).

I have a very similar situation (living in the suburbs of Chicago).  I cannot afford for my dog to break, and go wandering the neighborhood.  I spend a lot of time on the leash ensuring the dog obeys basic obedience before removing the leash.  This means I start with demonstration, and positive reinforcement.  Once the dog seems to understand the command, I then integrate the e-collar in avoidance training (continuous stimulation applied simultaneously with the command, and removed when the dog complies).  Once the dog obeys without stimulation, I move to momentary stimulation if the dog does not obey.

With Sadie, I know I will need more exercise in a controlled environment.  You may (once training is improved) consider "roading" the dog.  Check out www.alpineoutfitters.net/secure/scripts/default.asp.  Don't road a dog without a properly fitted harness (No, I don't work for Alpine!).

UPDATE

First, thanks everyone for making me realize that I had gotten lazy in my everyday work and Cooper was just giving me the same effort I had been giving him.

I'm a planner by nature and trade, so I made a plan and have been sticking to it.

1. Lots of recall and whoa work in 10-15 minutes or less in every situation I can drag him in to with the e-collar on and a 40ish' biothane check strap.
   1. yard (excellent even off lead)
   2. football fields (good, but those stands with food are hard to ignor for a young pup.)
   3. dog parks (this is my super controlled off lead area aside from my yard- I would give him an excellent on this too, but it's small. Lots of distractions, though)
   4. city parks (He did okay here, but I think only because it was a rainy couple of days. Didn't let go of check strap there)
   5. and our wide open training grounds  (I went back after a week or two ready to work the fields, and do circles if I had to. Overall, I was very very happy with our session, and VERY thankful for the CHECK STRAP.  My shoulders were sore from the initial wild man antics of clotheslining himself, but that improved greatly.
2. Reading more about force fetch training and trying to figure out who's method to go with after we master the hold. We are at the point where he accepting a dowel to hold for very short times. Holy crap did he fight the fingers in the mouth, but bull headed boys can be like that. 

Would you point me in the direction of some FF methods, names, books, etc...?

I have used the TriTronics Retriever Training Book.  A good friend of mine highly recommended it (www.amazon.com/Tri-Tronics-Retriever-Training-Jim-Dobbs/dp/0963838601/ref=sr_1_1).  I think it is a great over-all reference as well.  Only real issue is that it is written for Retrievers, which can have a different temperment to a GSP. 

Evan Graham is good as well for a focused reference on FF.  The DVDs are supposed to be outstanding to demonstrate the various aspects of Force Fetch.

OH, girls can be just as bad.  Sadie did well the first couple of times with the fingers, and then she decided to clamp down  .  About a million things go through your head when that happens (like how am I going to work without fingers...).  Luckily, I just grabbed the scruff of her neck and screamed (ok, not the most manly response...)  .  She let go.  It was totally my fault - I got my fingers back too far in her mouth.  We are now all good - Heeling around the block with bumper in mouth...  Doctors say the cast will be off in 6-weeks - JUST KIDDING!