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DrWiffelUser is Offline
Prior Lake, MN
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09/13/2011 1:04 PM  

I’ve been working with my pup on teaching basic commands and some fun ones in order to exercise his mind and to expel some of his energy. I’ve been trying to keep them short and fun (15min or less usually). The things I seem to be having the most trouble with is behavior training.

Here’s what I’ve been having trouble with. I’ve been working with him on the biting/nipping, jumping, and barking. All of which can be quite annoying, and sometimes rude. When I get home Dexter starts to jump on me, I tell him off (help him off if he doesn’t listen) and praise him when he does so. That used to work, but now I get home, he jumps I tell him off, he normally listens to the off but then starts to bite at my clothing, I tell him no bite, so he starts barking at me (I’m assuming because he wants to play) I’ve tried flat out ignoring the behavior to wait until he calms down, but it’s hard to do when he nips at your clothing because you don’t want holes in you work clothes (or any of them for that matter). At this time I haven’t had the chance to take him on his walk because I just got off work and walked through the door and I know he has tons of energy that he needs to expel. Regardless of what his energy level is, I still see this as unacceptable behavior and would like to figure out a way to remedy the situation. He will also do this when we are playing together, he’ll start to bite and I correct it by either muzzling his mouth with my hand or thumb on the tongue and tell him “no bite”. He stops biting and starts barking. Most of the time the barking can be stopped by putting something in his mouth, but sometimes it gets to be a bit much. Should I be sticking him in his kennel when he’s doing this? Seems like he barks for really only a few reasons, he wants something you have (mainly food, and I don’t give him people food, but sometimes he steals it off counter tops which is a whole other issue that I can’t seem to figure out how to get it to stop, I normally watch him like a hawk whenever there is any food around so that I can break this behavior, but sometimes he breaks through my eyesight), he’s board, or can’t get free because he tangled himself up on his exercise line.

Have any of you had the same issues? And how did you break your pup from them? I’ve been very consistent with him, is it something that he’ll just “come around to” or should I try something different? Also, where do you guys place your dog when you eat? I kennel him sometimes, but I want him to get the point that food on the table or food that others are eating is not his.

I tried doing a search for this, but I wasn’t able to find any information on here. If these questions have already been addressed please feel free to point me in the right direction.

Thanks in advance for all your input. I should have some more vids to share sometime soon I hope.

RoseUser is Offline

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09/13/2011 4:25 PM  

I'm no expert(a first time dog owner), but I have had similar experiences when I come home (barking, chewing, just generally "rude" stuff).

The ignoring method works for me when I come right in the door. That means no touch, no talking, no eye contact, nothing. In the beginning, if this means having to leave the room, I do that too. It's not until the dog lies down and is calm for a full 5 minutes do I call him over. More about this method is written in the book "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fennell.

Can't say too much about the barking when playing as I'm still working on that. So far I've been trying to teach "Bark" and "Quiet" on command to get him to differentiate between the two...

 

 

pixie beeUser is Offline

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09/14/2011 4:42 AM  
My method for pups that won't give in to the nipping/biteing - give a sharp swat across the muzzle the next few times and they get the message real fast.
The pup is not taking your steps seriously - why? b/c it has not power behind it.
Moms make their pups yelp to get messages across.
Ignoring is good, unless it escalates - then you need to step in and calm the pup.
Have treats ready - when the jumping starts teach that 'sit' gets a treat, but make sure you are treating for 'sit' - a wrong timed treat and you are encouraging a wrong behavior.
Have the pup follow you away and have him looking at you,waiting for a treat. You can treat if he is following nicely or you can have him sit.
At this age, all I really want is compliance/cooperation.
He's teething so supply a few forms of relief with chew toys.
The barking is his way of being demanding.
I would stop the pup by putting him in a 'sit' and have him hold it for a few seconds as I take a few steps backwards,call him to me, have him sit and repeat,repeat,repeat. Treat and praise for each correct behavior - but don't overdo the praise - this excites them - a stroke on the shoulder and a good boy is enough.
Teach the pup to be in control of himself now and you will have a dog that will have good manners life long.



"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
Texas BelleUser is Online
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09/14/2011 9:04 AM  
So I don't do the sharp swat across the muzzle, but I have grabbed them by the scruff and in a loud snarly voice really fussed at them until they backed off. I then substitute a chew toy and praise them. Since I rarely raise my voice at my dogs, they usually respond to this display (and it is more display than anything). I would also carry a chew toy around and any time your pup starts mouthing, I would just sub in the chew toy.

Your pup is being very pushy and you need to make sure the pup knows you are firmly in charge. Doing the obedience that pixie is suggesting should do the trick. You also need to be consistent and patient. Don't get frustrated or loose your temper. You may have to repeat over and over for a while to get all this across, so stick to it.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
DrWiffelUser is Offline
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09/14/2011 2:47 PM  
Thank you for the replies.

The ignoring works sometimes (no eye contact, petting, or talking to the pup), and it’s the method that I would prefer to use, but you can’t ignore a dog that’s biting at you or your clothes. I’d hate to give a sharp swat on the nose to put him in his place. I’ve been really trying to avoid that sort of punishment/reinforcement if at all possible as I don’t want him to learn any aggressive behaviors because we have really little ones coming over all the time but I don’t want nipping to become a problem especially with the little ones (and adults too). If I have to swat as a last resort, I would be willing to if that’s what it would take. Right now I think he knows that they are babies and only licks them (and wants to snatch their snacks), but it makes me nervous when I see him approaching small child and I use extreme caution (with hand ready to grab the collar) to be sure that there are no nips or anything like that. The nipping is by far my biggest worry seeing as it is not going away but has at least slowed down some, and I have been very consistent on the thumb in the mouth or muzzling his nose with a firm “no bite”. Maybe making more of a fuss like Texas is saying might help? Sometimes I’m unable to correct the action simply because the little guy is just too fast to get his muzzle because he knows what he just did was wrong and wants to do a keep away/can’t get me sort of thing and backs off and barks. This is one of those things I thought would have stopped by now. I know he’s teething so I always have something around that I can get for him, I just don’t always have something on me to give him, but I do always keep a handful of treats in my pocket.

I have been, lately before you mentioned it pixie, is using sit to calm the pup. I was using it for barking and some for nipping, but it may really help as well with some of the other problems that I was having. I think yours is more refined, and I’m going to move to more what you are suggesting. It’s strange, if he knows that there’s a treat involved, he quiets and settles down almost instantly. He is still very food motivated and I’d like to use it to my advantage the best I can.

With the barking, from what I have been reading (I started studying up yesterday), what Rose said is apparently the thing to do. I’m thinking would have to work on quiet first. I was working on this a little last night, but I don’t think that he caught on yet. I plan to keep working on it. If nothing changes (but I’m sure it will), I’ll have to try something else.

Thanks again.
Texas BelleUser is Online
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09/14/2011 5:21 PM  
I had to teach quiet to my 6 YO female, Halo, for obedience. She would get so ramped up about doing obedience she would start barking in the ring and that is point deductions. So, I tried allot of methods and ended up rewarding the quiet and just walking off the training floor when she started barking. I then started adding the quiet command and she has caught on pretty well. The excitement sometimes still gets the better of her, but I can remind her quiet and she will calm down.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
DrWiffelUser is Offline
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09/15/2011 12:05 PM  
Just an update.

I worked a little more on the quiet last night. I think he’s starting to respond, but I’m going to need a lot more work with it. Right now I think he’s being quiet because he knows there’s a treat coming. I just hope the more I work at it, that he discovers that “quiet” means quiet.

The tip Pixie Bee offered seems to work quite well with the nipping. Last night when I walked through the door he started to greet me by jumping on me so I ignored him then he started to nip at my pant leg, I told him to sit, he did almost instantly and was treated for the sit. I repeated this process though the night (treat or something to mouth/chew) and I have to say it made a huge difference in the way he was acting. He knows what no bite means, so he’ll act like he’s going to nip but stops short sometimes getting a little pant leg, the “sit” stops this all together. Thanks again for your suggestions.
pixie beeUser is Offline

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09/15/2011 12:26 PM  
You have a smart pup and you are a good handler.
One of the things I love about working with the dogs is the growing experience - handler skills never seem to have an end.





"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
DrWiffelUser is Offline
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09/15/2011 2:04 PM  
Thanks again. It was a huge obstacle that I just couldn’t figure out how to overcome and was really starting to frustrate me and the pooch for that matter. Thank you for your kind words.

The next question is how do I keep him off the countertops and tabletops? He listens to the off command most of the time, and corrections are given when he doesn’t. I understand the why, because the act in its self was rewarding because he was able to steal some food off, but even after knowing that it’s hard to get him to stop. How do I make him want to not want to do this? I’ve tried the can of pennies being thrown in his general direction (not at). Unfortunately this method doesn’t work. He starts going for the can instead. Funny in a way, but really not so much.
Texas BelleUser is Online
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09/15/2011 5:20 PM  
Substitute the reward on the countertop with something not so fun. Some people use mousetraps, so when the dog puts his paws up there it sets off the trap and scares them. Some use coke cans so when they are hit with the paw they fall all over the place scaring the dog. And some use an ecollar. I just put all the good stuff up so they get no reward. Eventually they quit looking. The problem is if you ever leave something good up there that they can smell the temptation is hard for them to over come. I find my boy checking for good stuff ever once in a while and when I do I correct him with an off, but he still will look sometimes. For a truly food motivated dog that reward is so tempting no matter what the punishment. Just be consistent and try to prevent your pup from being rewarded and the eventually get better. Also, remember they have great noses and can smell that good stuff even when we can't. My boy particularly loves sour dough bread, and any kind of meats. I also found out he actually loves mixed green salad and dressing.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
RoseUser is Offline

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09/15/2011 5:46 PM  
Lol, that funny, my GSP really loves the smell of anything smoked. Smoked chicken, smoked jerky, smoked pheasant.

Especially the smoked pheasant.
DrWiffelUser is Offline
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09/16/2011 11:59 AM  
Yeah… I would say he’s pretty food motivated. Even for things that aren’t food. 99% of the time food is put away unless I’m making/eating something, but he is constantly putting his paws on the counter, food or no food. I can’t say that I blame him seeing as leaving food on the counter and turning you back for a second is setting him up for failure. So I won’t pretend that it’s his fault, because I know it’s really mine. That’s how I learned that he prefers raw pork chops over raw chicken breast. I had to laugh a little when I caught him trying to woof down a chop that wouldn’t fit through food hole. Just wasn’t his fault and it was a good thing I was making extra that day. I’m thinking that I’m going to have to try the mouse traps to scare him out of it. He likes to chase cans around once they’re rolling, and he’s a little young for an e-collar. Thanks for the tip I’ll let you guys know how it goes.
Texas BelleUser is Online
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09/16/2011 2:35 PM  

Shorthairs are opportunists and unfortunately for us they have lots of things they like and find rewarding for us when it comes to countersurfing. My oldest shorthair is now 8 YO, but I call her Perfect Belle because I could set food on the floor and she would not touch it until I told her it was ok. Not even if I left the room. She was born that way. Then I got Halo and same thing. Then came my first taste of reality, my outlaw boy, Ringo (named after the real outlaw, Johnny Ringo). He has made me a much better trainer because he has challenged and tested me every step of the way. He also was successful at partially retraining Halo so he would have a partner in crime. Not so much luck with Belle, and Belle will come tattle to me on the criminals when they get into mischief. Ringo is now training his niece, Fauna, but fortunately for me she is not into countersurfing and so far Uncle Ringo has not be able to persuade her to join him and her mother, Halo, in the game. Needless to say with two very sneaky countersurfers I have to stay on my toes. Good news is the persistence has paid off unless I slip up and leave something really tasty on the counter, then it is back to square one.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
AceofSpadesUser is Offline


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09/17/2011 6:05 AM  
WOW where do i start? The GSP is a high strung extremely energetic animal. They are built for speed, endurance, and above all TO HUNT.
I have a one year old GSP that makes even the most "qualified" trainers run for cover. I have been expelled from two events because of her inclination to Bolt or Bark at the wrong time.

This this what I have learned about GSP's when it comes to training.

1 They only understand one thing. PRESSURE
2 Mine runs 7.5 Miles before we can train or she is not mentally tuned into me
3 First Command to Teach is WHOA and WHOA, and WHOA
4 The Second Command is "Come" Back
5 Whoa, Come, Sit, Stay, Heel are your first five commands dont do anything else until those are so firmly ingrained the dog doesnt think about it.
6 The is a damn good reason why so many GSP's wear an E-collar. Sportdog Brand 1825 is the minimum starting point.
Love your dog but remind it every day YOU ARE THE ALPHA.
Texas BelleUser is Online
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09/17/2011 7:31 AM  
So I do not agree with AceofSpades.

High strung,no. High energy, yes. There is a difference.
Fast, absolutely.
Endurance, that depends, but a shorthair that is conformationally correct and in good shape can run all day.
And yes they love to hunt, but that can be turned to advantage in training.
But the most important observation that was left off this list was intelligence. Shorthairs are smart, smart, smart, and they learn very quickly. So if you are a trainer that likes to drill, you will end up with a misbehaving dog. For example, I have found that if I ask my dog to do something, and they do it perfectly the first time, best to stop and move on. If I ask them to do the same thing again, they then start to think they have done something wrong and that is when they will embellish. Sometimes small changes and sometimes monumental changes.

That hunting instinct can also be used to advantage and makes them excellent athletes for agility, dock diving and flyball too if someone wants to turn that energy to good use, but is not a hunter. Remember the Germans bred these dogs to be family dogs and versatile hunting dogs. And they are definitely versatile. That is one of the reasons I love these dogs and own 4 of them right now.

Pressure is ok at the right time, but shorthairs for the most part are soft dogs and very smart with allot of energy. The key is you have to be more interesting than everything else which means as a trainer you have to work hard. When a pup is young pressure is not necessary because at that time they are much more willing to listen to you. As they mature more pressure can be applied depending on the dog and circumstances, and eventually the ecollar can be used as a tool. I don't use ecollars on my dogs until 1) they completely understand the command and I need to use the ecollar to reinforce, and 2) they are mature enough to handle the ecollar which means over the age of 1 year. Going back to the word need. Not every command will require the use of an ecollar. In fact, the only command I consistently use the ecollar to reinforce is my here command and not on every dog. Most of my training is positive reinforcement, but I do use a mix of positive and negative when needed. My suggestion is to understand your dog, understand how a dog thinks, and then look at all the training methods and tools. Not one size fits all as in anything, but I think you will find that winning the dogs attention (meaning you are the most interesting thing around which means starting in a controlled and quiet environment) and then training with mostly positive will get you a well trained shorthair.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
kpwleeUser is Offline
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09/17/2011 9:49 AM  
You've gotten some great advice and had some success doing what I would suggest - instead of punishing the wrong behavior, TEACH & reward an appropriate one. This is exactly what you've done by asking for & rewarding a 'sit' when your pup goes to nip.
I personally feel strongly about teaching the behavior I want instead of running around attempting to punish and prevent the wrong behaviors.
My dog is similar to the outlaw Ringo in that he is compelled to test all things and as a pup was ridiculously pushy. Hitting him for biting would have had no impact and as far as I can gather is an attempt to instill some fear in the dog. With a truly pushy, headstrong dog ( like mine) that would never work and would likely cause additional issues.
As for the counter surfing, I would do my very best to make sure there is no food on the counters, essentially managing the problem while he's young and learning the rules.
Aceofspades I guess you haven't concerned yourself with allowing your dog's growth plates to close, running a pup (less than 18 mos old) regularly over long distances is not a recommended practice, to say the least

It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/
Texas BelleUser is Online
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09/17/2011 10:28 AM  

kpwlee - I agree. I love redirecting all that energy and showing them how to behave and get the reward. In the end, all the GSPs I have been around want to please. The stronger the bond the harder they work to please you. My "outlaw" is one of the nicest working GSPs in obedience (If I can just get him to quit visiting his neighbors during the long sit), and he is very competitive. Both he and his older half sister were very head strong, but now willingly work for me to the point when we are heeling I have to pay attention or I can run them right into something that we heel past. That is focus, and I love it, but it is not something that is achieved lightly. You have to earn the dogs trust and respect and vice versa. It is a team effort, never forget that.

Love to hear about success with a challenging pup, and remember they harder the dog is to train, the better a trainer you will become.


Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
kpwleeUser is Offline
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09/17/2011 11:26 AM  
Awesome stuff Bev! I am sure I'd love all your dog's but Ringo the best :)
Bugsy is a very challenging dog for many reasons, not a bad dog just a challenging one. No one could force him to do anything and no way would punishment shape him into the dog he is today which is why I personally have moved away from most applications of punishment. Whereas it can work on softer dogs it isn't necessary for them and I don't think it will work for tough dogs, certainly not mine. So yes IMHO challenging dogs demand a more creative and better trainer and in return the bond that develops is awesome.
Bugsy is far from perfect, our biggest struggle is his prey drive which once engaged is ridiculously hard to manage. The ecollar has been a Godsend but only used to reinforce commands or as a tap on the shoulder at distance. He is better but there is Rome for improvement lol
I would say to the OP, be consistent, keep asking for correct behaviors to thwart incorrect ones, be creative and keep smiling. Soon enough your pup will 'get it' and you will be able to fully appreciate him

It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/
SplatUser is Offline
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09/18/2011 7:57 AM  
I find you need a level balance of negative and positive reinforcement...kind of like with kids!

For biting I like the squeeze nose and they will yipe or grab their nose and get a little piece if their lip pushed into their mouth and then will bite themselves that way they know what a bite feels like..but you also need to reward good behavior...

I have to say that even though my younger dog will run circles all day in the yard if we are outside working all day...he will also nap or chew his bone all day if we are stuck inside all day...he knows what is his to chew and what toys are the kids toys (like legos that are all over)...so they know when they can be wild and crazy and know how to behave in the house too...

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09/19/2011 4:23 AM  
AceofSpades -
I am so sorry for your experience with GSPs. It does sound pretty darn negative.
It also sounds, to me, as tho you have a dog that feels the need to dominate. I don't know what training program you are following or your trainer experience
(or the breeding). Before I would add (more) pressure I would make sure the dog's lessons are made simple and clear - teach then train.
The up side - your trainer skills are put to the test and hopfully you are rising to the challenge -
it's what I love about working with dogs

How about a picture of the rascal?


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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