tcross
MH
Posts:62
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| 08/30/2011 7:31 AM |
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I am looking for some advice on how to train my dog to walk on a leash. i've been pretty successful with hunting training, play training, and general house training, but he does not understand the leash concept. this is probably my fault due to the fact that i've devoted most of our training time on hunting and behavior in the house. Dunkan is 16 months old. he constantly tries to pull and head in his own direction. my girlfriend is 5'2" and 115lbs... Dunkan is a healthy 70lbs... he has no problem dragging her around. He does this when i'm holding the leash also. i'm affraid i'll end up hurting his throat and never get the point across. i need to figure out a way so he is obediant on a leash....
any suggestions?? |
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tcross
MH
Posts:62
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| 08/30/2011 7:43 AM |
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| ok... i think i jumped the gun a little. i just realized there is already a thread from a previous poster about training a gsp on a leash. Sorry!! |
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 08/30/2011 7:55 AM |
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I would start with these 2 videos for training him. This type of training sometimes takes a little work, and you have to be consistent. Some people recommend the pinch collar to force the dog to stop pulling.
I’ve watched most of this guys videos. His eyes are kind of trippy, but he really knows what he’s talking about.
Good luck! |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 08/30/2011 8:28 AM |
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The two videos are pretty good for teaching loose leash walking. They are basically focusing on a few concepts: 1) rear end awareness, 2) loose leash when training heeling, 3) the correction (turning a different direction) and rewarding the loose leash. The clicker is being used to mark the behavior. You can also use a verbal marker like the word Yes. This will work, but do not be fooled into thinking this is easy or quick. It is not, it takes allot of time and training to get to the behavior that is desired. Also, the minute you get into an environment you will have to go through the process again. It will be quicker this time. Etc. the critical bit of information in the video that was not IMHO emphasized enough is when training the leash needs to stay loose. If you start with a tight leash because you know your dog will pull, it is guaranteed he will pull. This is hard for owners to learn and hard to do. I would suggest that you go to an obedience class where they can help you. Note there are also other methods for training heel, and I would recommend you do some reading on this and decide which one will work for you. I personally tailor my training method to my dog and generally use a combination of many methods.
So, the other issue is what to do now so you and your GF can walk safely with your dog while you are in the process of training a loose leash walk. I do recommend the pinch. It works well and actually will protect your dogs neck. You do not need a big one. I get the small and add links to it so that it fits properly (snug up under the ears). Once the do realizes he will get the automatic correction when pulling, he will stop pulling. I do not use the pinch when training, but for other walking it is a nice tool to have in your tool box. If you are worried because it looks like something from the Spanish Inquisition, just put it on your arm and pull. You will feel the correction just as the dog does. It is not horrible or painful.
Good luck! |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 08/30/2011 9:06 AM |
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Because the video did not show the finished product I am skeptical.
Who wants to remember to buy and feed treats ALL the time?
The dog he is working with is calm. There was a a visual cue and a correction that the dog ignored and the dog was never aware of the trainer unless he went for the treat bag or she heard the clicker.
While these methods can work and the dog can be weaned off the treat I find them to require a lot of work in high distraction settings. The only consequence is not getting the treat.
I would like to see the dog with a squirell darting by.
I believe these methods are great for teaching puppies what is expected.
I subscribe to positive/negative reinforcement/punishment
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 08/30/2011 9:06 AM |
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double post |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 08/30/2011 10:14 AM |
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| I try to avoid the negative/punishment for reinforcement, but sometimes it's nearly impossible to not use those methods. I was thinking of also getting a pinch collar for the same reasons you were talking about (rabbit or frog or whatever). But it is important that the dog learns first of what is expected, after they know what's expected, it has to be reinforce, negative or positive. I personally try positive first. Of course mine is only 16weeks and he seems to respond to the positive (treats) a little better then negative. Again I have no experience other than Dexter... Only bummer is I have to have treats on me most of the time, but have been trying to wean him off. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 08/30/2011 11:04 AM |
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Here is an excellent site:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzezw4q7/id11.html
Dog training (correctly) takes time and knowledge
and I sometimes still get it wrong - go figure |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 08/30/2011 3:54 PM |
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| I like how they referenced Pavlov in one of the articles on the page. Good information. Some of the discussions seemed a bit vague, but really try’s get you to understand from the dogs perspective. Those video’s that I linked to, that guy has the same ideas for the most part (understanding from the dogs perspective), but calls it all positive reinforcement. Negative reinforcement to him I’m guessing would be something like a choke collar or e-collar. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 08/30/2011 4:39 PM |
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If you are really interested in understanding from the dogs perspective, I would recommend a couple of books.
The Dog's Mind by Dr. Bruce Fogle
The Other End of the Leash by Dr. Patricia B. McConnell
Both are excellent reads.
pixie - I really liked the link you posted. The funny thing is most people think the Negative Punishment (removing something the dog wants) is not negative. The positive reinforcement people often use this and believe this is positive. The example he used about getting a dog to stop barking was actually something I faced with Halo in obedience in the retrieve on flat exercise. She would get so ramped about retrieving she would start barking and barking in competition is points off. So I simple stopped what we were doing and led her off to the side of the training area anytime she barked. She caught on pretty fast. I then added a queue , no bark, later. I can now queue her to no bark if I think she is getting too ramped. Works really well, but much easier to describe than to train. Consistency was key.
I actually mix up the various forms of reinforcement and training dependent on the problem and dog. The bigger the training challenge, the more interesting the training becomes for me. I also like the training much more than the competition. Each of my dogs has presented their own unique challenge in training for me. I always tell folks that the more difficult the dog is to trainer, the better handler they will become.
I would also recommend to folks who are really interested in understanding how a dog thinks and how to improve their training to continue to read and take seminars, and adapt their training accordingly. It is a journey you travel with your dog and what works for one dog may be a total bust for another. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 08/30/2011 5:46 PM |
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I am as guilty as anyone when it comes to misunderstanding what training terms mean and how to apply them.
The past 5+ years have been a learning experience and I am still learning. Each dog poses their own challenges to me as a trainer and the venues I choose to train for require knowledge.
Training will tell us what a dog is "made of". It also tells us about ouselves.
First teach then train.
We train to change behavior.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 08/31/2011 9:29 AM |
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I was just looking back at some of your post's (Pixie Bee and Belle), and you guys really seem to have it all together. Honestly I don't know how you guys do it sometimes. I had kind of a rough night with Dexter last night, just wasn't his day I guess. I know this is off topic, but what do you guys do when you just run out of all your patience?
I like to think that I have a lot of patience, but last night I had to take a break, fortunately it was at 9:40 and it was close to his bedtime anyways so I ended up putting him to bed (and myself soon thereafter). |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 08/31/2011 10:36 AM |
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what do you guys do when you just run out of all your patience?
It depends on what I have lost patience with
If it's training - I stop
If it's manners - I breathe and re-vamp the training program,if it's necessary
If it's housebreaking - I clean the floor and forget about it
I remind myself that the dog is a sentient being.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 08/31/2011 1:21 PM |
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Yeah... in this case it was house breaking...
I normally just clean it up and keep forget about it, and keep a close eye on him so I can get him outside or catch him in the act. This time missed him the first time. Saw the spot cleaned it up and took him out (where he went again so that was good). Then about 15-20min later he started barking like he wanted to play, didn't go to the door like he normally does, ran back over to me an went right in front of me on the carpet. I couldn't believe it. I let out a big "no" and took him out. Came back cleaned it up (with scrubbing bubbles... oops must have been tired myself) put him to bed then myself. I'm thinking I'm going to have to start regulating his water intake a little more especially at night.
As far as training goes for learning something new, I take my time and don't expect him to get it even after the first 20+ times. I can understand how hard it is to learn
something new, but when he get it, he gets tons of praise (maybe a few extra treats).
As for manners... We're still working on that one. He's still a good boy. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 08/31/2011 1:51 PM |
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| I do pretty much same as pixie. To tell you the truth though, I rarely loose patience with my dogs though because they are so important to me. I have learned so much from them and they have given so much to me (that unconditional love thing), and in the scheme of things a puddle on the floor or a mis-step in training is a very small thing. Now people, I loose patience with all the time. ; ) |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 08/31/2011 2:06 PM |
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Here's a funny story,well I think it's funny:
a few weekends ago I was working on casting with my dog, he was doing great then kinda quit and messed up on 3 casts - the same cast!,so I said to him pretty annoyed - "WT"H", and yes, he did get it after that.
THEY KNOW
I think the more experience someone has the more patience they have
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 08/31/2011 3:13 PM |
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| I defiantly can see the humor in that. When I told him “No” he already knew he screwed up. It is funny how the can defiantly pick up on your feelings and attitudes. I think he might be starting to “test” me now. I’ll just keep with what I’m doing and continue being consistent and fare, I’m sure he’ll pick it all up. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 08/31/2011 3:58 PM |
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| Not just feelings and attitudes, but also body language. The other thing I am always happy about is when my dog is presented a problem and he makes a choice that shows he is learning. I love to play proofing games with my dogs where I present a challenge and they have to make a choice. I am happy as long as they make a choice. A wrong choice is a teaching opportunity, a correct choice is a reinforcement opportunity. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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| 09/02/2011 7:55 AM |
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| The potty training is the hardest not to loose patience with (I even got frustrated with my kids, not just dogs).... You might very well be at a stage where they test you...I recall thinking mine was potty trained and then all of a sudden we had accidents again...it seemed to be right when we would start playing too...the main thing in any training is consitancy! |
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DrWiffel
Prior Lake, MN
MH
Posts:175
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| 09/02/2011 9:22 AM |
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| That’s exactly it! I thought I was pretty much done potty training then all of a sudden things went haywire and it feels like you’re back to square 1. Seems like it’s always when you’re having fun. No kids here yet, but I saw my sister having the same problems so I have a basic understanding on what you’re talking about. Other than what happened the other night, we had no other accidents this week. Fingers crossed. |
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