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knightfarms
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
MH
Posts:87
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| 06/01/2011 7:33 AM |
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I picked up our 18 wk old pup this weekend. So exciting!!!!
I know a lot about dogs and obedience, but am totally new to field trials and gun dogs.
The breeder mentioned that he doesn't teach sit/hup cause it's a disqualifying thing in ft's... do you use sit or just whoa to stop movement and enduce "chill" 
I'd like to start saying directional words as they happen naturally, but I don't know the lingo. help! |
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion. -Unknown |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/01/2011 9:04 AM |
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Sit is a default action. A dog who is unsure will often sit b/c this has been rewarding for the dog in the past. A dog who sits on point is a dog who is unsure what the trainer/handler wants and is often caused by too much pressure applied by the trainer. I have taught dogs to sit from 8 weeks of age and am yet to have on sit on point - now, this is where it can get tricky. Once the dog is aware of the handler the dog is no longer pointing, but standing its bird. I would not expect a dog to sit at this time,in the versatile venues it is acceptable for a dog to sit or down at the flush.
I know field trialer's have a thing about style and I would think that a sit would not indicate style in a FT.
I teach my dogs directional commands early on, as well. The best dogs are the ones that will handle,IMO. It has helped us more than once in a test and makes us both look good. But I do versatile testing, I do not know if FTers handle during braces - maybe walking FTs they do.
I would think that handling is a no-no b/c Fters want a dog to be 'out there' and a dog that handles can shorten up and maybe loose run (RUN is in another thread - worth the read if you can find it)
I teach left,right,back,come 'round,here. The first three involve retrieving drills.
If you plan on doing FTs and I think you should based on a response you recieved from Bruce - then I think you need to seek out an experienced FTer for advice.
Awesome beasts, but not my cup of tea.
Waiting to hear responses from field trialers. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 06/02/2011 7:35 AM |
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Many to most Trialers and many to most Pro Trainers will advise against using Sit, depending on your plans for how far you want to take the dog in Training. As Pixie said, when you begin to apply pressure to a dog to stand it's bird all the way through to Fall and Release; a Sit being default, can be a way for a dog to remove that pressure, as they have learned that sitting is a "good thing" to their owner. If you use Sit or Down as a strictly "place oriented command" in the house and never in the field or field training area, then you would be less likely to ever encounter a problem. Just strictly use Whoa in the field/field training areas. As someone whom trains Professionally, I have seen more than once, a dog that will Sit with even the slightest pressure to stand after having learned it as a default "safe command".
As for handling, there can actually be a great deal of handling in Field Trials, though it is slightly different from what Pixie would know as handling in her chosen venue. We still use a great deal of directional handling to push or bend a dog towards and edge or certain objectives that we want a dog to check in on for birds. The smartest and most natural dogs will do so with very little influence from the handler, but on a course with a great deal of objectives, they may need a little more help from us to get them going in the path we would like them. There is also the consideration that a course is exactly that, a pre-defined path of travel that may take us in a different direction from the path that may be more natural to the dog and that it might be more inclined to head towards. At places like this, it is important to be able to get the dog to bend off that more natural course and head the direction that the course is actually going to flow, otherwise you "lose" the dog and may not be able to get them back on the path of travel you need them to be on.
The biggest difference between a "Retriever Style" handling and a "Trial Style" of handling would be that a Retriever style is handled via hand and whistle to direct a dog, whereas a Trial style would be with changing the direction of your body(walking) or horse(horseback obviously) to show the dog your chosen path and whistle or verbal cues, though less whistle unless the dog is handling at a greater distance where the whistle is needed to reach out to them and the voice won't carry as well. The whistle is used more often to 1) release the dog, 2) push them even further out and 3) to get their attention to look at you for a change of direction and possibly 4) to bring them back in. Voice is sometimes used for the above, but range greatly dictates this, as a whistle will carry much further and clearer to the dog than voice.
As an aside, the only real difference between Walking Trials and Horseback Trials is in one, you are on a horse. Otherwise, they are still the same dogs, doing the same job, with the same handling and the same required skill set.
Hope this helps.
Is Art your Breeder? If so, talk to him often and LISTEN to what he tells you, follow his advice and you will do well. Art knows Shorthairs and more importantly, he knows HIS Shorthairs. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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knightfarms
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
MH
Posts:87
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| 06/02/2011 3:29 PM |
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Thank you for your replies! This city girl can use all the help she can get.
Don't worry, I'll be working with some very experienced folks in the near future, but because of our vacation schedules, it'll be 2 weeks and I don't want to lose out on that time.
So far we've been working on "here" and "whoa" a little. I've been throwing a bumper, ball or frisbee or two for him a few times a day, and I quit when he's still super excited.
Art is the breeder and he has been a fantastic resource!!!!! I am so lucky to have gotten a pup from him. I just posted the question cause I wanted to know if it was what other folks did, too.
When teaching directions, do you actually use the words left and right? In horses we used to use Gee and Haw... but I know the choice of words is arbitrary. I won't lie, I'm just trying to learn and fit in so I'm not the super odd (wo)man out with my commands.  |
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion. -Unknown |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/02/2011 4:14 PM |
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So glad you have a good resource. It can really make or break the outcome.
Before I teach actual directions I am walking in birdless fields and exposing the pup to turning with me and to turn on a whistle, I will also use an arm wave when I turn.
Two peeps mean stop the direction you are going and turn - come 'round.
When I am ready to teach actual left,right,back I do this in the most simple form and I do use those words along with a visual clue - I place my hand,like I am praying,in the center of my chest and I push left or right, for back I hold my hand up and push my palm up and back.The dog is sent on a visual cue of a tshort hand thrown,seen bumper.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 06/02/2011 9:35 PM |
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If you plan to Trial and no offense Pixie, please do not use hands in the manner Pixie is using. That is more a Retriever based directional handling. If you plan to do NAVHDA or are big into Waterfowl hunting, then by all means do use those hand directionals. Mostly, it is how you place yours, or your horses body to move in the direction you want them to roll. Get their attention either verbally or with whistle and turn the direction you want. A dogs natural instinct is to be to your front and a good one will go with you. Most will. Verbally, it depends and the best thing is to go to a few Trials and watch how others are directing their dogs. You'll pick some things that will fit you pretty quickly and that you like. There is no ONE way.
As for whistle, typically; 1 long blast means to get out, such as from the break away or when you release them to go on after a piece of bird work. Once out, to keep pushing them further out, many will use a multi tone whistle that they will hit and change tone mid blast...kinda hard to explain, but once you hear it you know it. Multiple blast is a "Hey, look here" and helps you to get the dogs attention to see you are turning and to come round and get to the front. In all honesty though, there is no ONE way to handle and I think it actually better to be the slightly odd(aren't we all!) one out, so that your dog recognizes you and only you handling him. No confusion of another braced handler sounding similar or being able to handle your dog and make them look poorly.
Don't worry about being odd, just worry about having fun and enjoying your dog, handling how you are most comfortable. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/03/2011 7:15 AM |
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100% agree.
I handle my dogs for grouse,woodcock,ducks - I don't handle all that much but it does come in handy when the dog couldn't mark it or the wind takes the dog elsewhere. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 06/06/2011 11:06 AM |
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| As an aside, in my personal opinion, the best handlers are virtually silent other than to give occasional change of direction "attention getters". Makes the Judges scratch their heads trying to figure out how your putting your dog where you want them when you're not making any obvious commands. Looks like telepathy ;-) |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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knightfarms
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
MH
Posts:87
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| 06/06/2011 2:53 PM |
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Okay so here's what I've learned from the boards and Art, Cooper's breeder:
1. Get a whistle and hope that I'm THAT good that I'll never have to use it.
2. No sense in teaching directional words cause the dog will be too far away from me to hear them, or at least that's what he's bred for.
3. Do NOT teach sit!!!! This is hard for me cause I come from an obedience backround, but I'm trying not to praise sit when it happens.
4. Get a GPS collar
- When do you start putting those on dogs? Around 9 months when they get independent and stubborn or earlier. He's 5 months now, and hangs around with a 30' check cord
Thanks everyone!!!! |
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion. -Unknown |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 06/07/2011 9:57 PM |
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I prefer Acme whistles... No, seriously It's a real company and not just something off the Roadrunner and Coyote cartoons!
There are a bunch of whistles, get one that is loud and the tone carries. Pealess can be better in freezing weather, as the pea won't freeze up in the whistle. Here again, listen to a bunch being used and pick the one you like, then buy a half dozen of them to stash in your vest, in your truck/car, your training gear and the one on a lanyard you hope not to lose or misplace.
As for putting on the collar, both E-collar and GPS/Tracking collar. Put them on every time you take him out to the fields to run and train. He'll quickly recognize those collars as meaning "We're going to go have fun". You don't have to necessarily turn them on, just get him used to the idea that wearing them means good things are about to happen. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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knightfarms
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
MH
Posts:87
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| 06/14/2011 2:29 PM |
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I have neither a gps or e-collar yet, but what about an electric fence collar with the battery out to get him used to the feeling? |
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He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion. -Unknown |
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Almost Heaven GSP
Springfield, WV
MH
Posts:731
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| 06/16/2011 9:28 PM |
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| I've never tried it, but see no reason that wouldn't work just fine. You don't need to turn it on or anything, it is just the idea that wearing it means "we're heading to the field for FUN" and it is conditioning him that the collar is a good thing, with no negative association. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer
Almost Heaven GSP's
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