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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 01/25/2011 7:23 AM |
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Tessa (2.5 years old) is still flagging when she points. It's very rare that she totally freezes on point. Is that something that will pass eventually, or is there something I can do? |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 01/25/2011 8:47 AM |
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| Ringo and Fauna flag like crazy when they pick up the scent and as the scent gets stronger, but once they zero in and point they freeze totally. I don't have any advice on the flagging, but I am sure others will. You might want to send Bruce (AlmostHeaven) an email. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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snips
n.ga.
MH
Posts:413
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| 01/25/2011 12:29 PM |
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Has she done it all along? Or has it developed? Could it be boredom from standing excessively? I have see dogs that people fly birds from a pigeon pole, as they start getting bored. Or could be genetic. Do you know if Mom or her Dad flag? |
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brenda |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 01/25/2011 12:33 PM |
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| She's always done it while searching and pointing. Never occurred to me that it could be boredom. I would say no, but then, she's only been on quail and pigeons. She encountered her first chukar a few months ago and had a really nice point with NO flagging. I don't know if her parents flag. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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oneal3337
Great Falls, Mt
MH
Posts:107
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| 01/25/2011 1:38 PM |
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| How does she do on wild birds? I've seen several dogs who flag or are not as intense as they should be when pointing planted birds but lock up tighter then a drum when out hunting. Are you shooting any birds for her? All pointing and no reward of a downed bird can lead to boredom or disinterest. |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 01/25/2011 1:48 PM |
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I have not had the opportunity yet to hunt wild birds. We are limited to plantation hunting. She has had birds shot over her over the past two years. I've been on three (plantation) hunts over the past month and they helped greatly in showing her the big picture of a hunt (search, point, flush, shot, find again, retrieve) and I am glad to report that the bits and pieces of training seem to fall into place nicely.
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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oneal3337
Great Falls, Mt
MH
Posts:107
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| 01/25/2011 2:30 PM |
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| It sounds like she's doing well and if she pointed intensely on a chukar I don't think you have too much to worry about. My female gsp doesn't really care about pigeons and doesn't get to enthused about quail but is our best out in the field during hunting season. A person I train with told me to cut her back to only a one or two birds a week max and and that seemed to help. I bet plantation hunting was a blast. |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 01/25/2011 2:47 PM |
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Yes it is a blast. We'll go on a few more next month. It is the same place where we train and I'd really like to take her to new terrain and different birds but it's no less enjoyable and beats the dog park any day. The plantation is very well maintained and the birds have been really excellent lately.
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 01/26/2011 12:08 PM |
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I have to make a few assumptions here so bear with me, you say she has "always" done it? Does that mean that when she was a pup, say 4 months old, you put some birds out and she flagged on her very first point? Again, assuming, you were a new trainer and you read where books tell you, "birds, birds, birds", so, in the interest of training, you put her on a lot of birds, even 3 or 4 a week can be a lot. She got bored, but instead of taking her off birds for a few months you kept putting birds our for her. She may or may not have caught some or even a bunch. Or, she pointed, she was able to creep and get close, got excited, wagged that tail, and then more birds just accentuated the problem. Or, maybe you put her on birds and then did the "good girl, whoa, whoa, whoa, good girl" deal and this also helped her along on her flagging. Sounds like I'm pointing fingers when in reality, this is about 90% of the time the cause of most new trainers MO. Be assured, most of us have done it!!
At this point, I would still take her off birds for a month. Then, I'd get some pigeons and use launchers, if she stops and points properly then say nothing and flush the bird, if she flags, pop the bird immediately. Best course of action is wild jumpy birds that make her excited and intense. But, since you said you can't go that route, then I'd try to build the fun and excitement in the dog again. |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 01/26/2011 12:49 PM |
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Right and wrong.
Yes, I am a new trainer, she's my first bird dog and I came in knowing nothing about any of it. I got her when she was 3 months old Sept. 08. At that point I was thinking of maybe doing some field work with her but wasn't dead serious about it, not knowing what to expect. Did some puppy work with her over the winter but no birds. The first time she was on birds was March 09 when she was 8 months old, when my local NAVHDA chapter started training again. That year she was on 4 birds once a month, plus a few if we count the NA test and the four JH legs. In 2010 she was on 6 birds once a month (March-October), with a couple of 8-week lulls. So if anything, I would say she's not been on enough birds, but it was the best I could do. She has always flagged from her first time on a bird (if my memory serves me right) until today, during the search and the point. There have been a few points with no flagging but generally the tail goes like crazy. I am pretty sure it's excitement rather than boredom.
Now...yes, there were lots of mistakes made on my part. She was a bird chaser and I let it go too long for two reasons that made sense to me then but I wish I stopped it earlier than I did. She was never an excessive bird catcher but later on in her career she did catch some and developed a bit of a taste for catching and we worked on that.
And yes, whenever she pointed/whoa'd , I did praise her. I've phased it out as she became more steady but I still do it and I see now that this may be an issue, as I am also reinforcing the excitement/flagging that comes with the point.
After the last training day in October she was on 4 birds early December and then on 12/23 when my friend booked a hunt (we only get 15 quail at a time, and work with two dogs). We booked another hunt on 1/3 and another one on 1/22. My friend wants to do two or three more over the next 6 weeks or so. Do you - or anyone else here - think that's too much? As of March we will likely go back to once a month.
As I said, I really think the excitement is still there - anyone watching her hunt concurs. But this reminded me to watch for possible signs of boredom as we go through this hunts - never occurred to me that boredom in the field could happen. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 01/26/2011 1:19 PM |
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Here is my view.
While a dog is searching the dog does not flag. I call that tail movement tick,tick,tick...I use the tail movement to clue me into whether a dog is on scent or not. The tail moves differently, or rather less or more, depending on what the dog is deciphering.
Once the dog has established a point on a tight sitting bird the tail should stop moving - unless the bird moves. Some dogs,usually young and inexperienced will flag when the bird moves.
She may be flagging after establishing point or before due to being insecure about what to do and what she thinks you want. (my bet)
It can be the scent of the bird -too much human scent.
Get her on more birds and increase the confidence. If you are able to use a launcher and launch as soon as she gets scent or flags once she has established point . Don't give her time to think.
JMO. Hope it helps some.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 01/26/2011 3:08 PM |
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Since these things seem to turn into a debate, I am going to say two things, I have never seen a dog cured of flagging by putting the dog on more pen reared birds. Second, you said...
"And yes, whenever she pointed/whoa'd , I did praise her. I've phased it out as she became more steady but I still do it and I see now that this may be an issue, as I am also reinforcing the excitement/flagging that comes with the point"
Any taking or noise takes the dog's attention away from the scent of the bird and away from its focus. You say you are reinforcing the excitement/flagging that comes with the point. I'm confused by this statement, are you doing something more when the dog is on point now?
I'll whole heartedly stick with...take the dog off birds and ease up on bird training for a month or so, then use one bird and see what happens, but keep quiet!! |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7834
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| 01/26/2011 3:44 PM |
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| I think Tessa meant that by praising with good dog she was reinforcing the flagging behavior. Dog points and flags, gets a good dog and repeats the behavior (pointing and flagging). |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 01/26/2011 6:33 PM |
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What Bev said. I meant by praising the steady point, I was unaware that I may be praising the flagging that comes with it. Just to be clear, I am not babbling away and actually, I don't say anything when she goes on point, but I praise her (less so now) as she remains on point (rather than breaking it which she did in the beginning). I say "nice" in a low voice. Said. Will say nothing next time.
BTW she also flags when we practice the whoa in other settings (while out walking, at home). |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 01/27/2011 10:03 AM |
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Something that struck me overnight, yeah, I thought about THIS last night, do you let her search, scent, point birds on her own, or do you let her search, get close, and at a point, WHOA her when she seems near the birds and/or scent cone? If you are whoaing her to stopping before she gets a real nose full then you may be stopping her too soon. She needs to search, get scent, stop on her own by her breeding and innate ability making her stop versus you stopping her when you think she should be stopping.
Did I just explain that into the ground??!! SORRY!
In other words, don't whoa her into a point.
Good gosh I'm wordy!! |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 01/27/2011 10:38 AM |
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If anyone is wordy it's me look at my posts LOL!
No, I never whoa her when she is near a bird or when I think she scents it. She stops on her own and has always done so. At first points were VERY brief and I whoa'd her when she moved or was about to move.
I do whoa her as soon as she sees another dog on point that I want her to honor (she does not honor naturally except on a few occasions). Thinking about that now I don't think she's flagging much when honoring. Will pay closer attention next time I go out.
Thanks for thinking about THIS last night  |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 01/27/2011 10:57 AM |
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No, I never whoa her when she is near a bird or when I think she scents it. She stops on her own and has always done so. At first points were VERY brief and I whoa'd her when she moved or was about to move.
This may be the issue.
I still say she is unsure what to do and what she thinks you expect of her. She is not fully in prey drive - she is in handler drive (thinking about you).
If she will not catch the birds she is pointing let her break the brief points. She will learn to control her enthusiasm thru experience - totally separated from your influence. You may have already conditioned her how to behave around the scent of the birds she does this with. Can you use a chukar - a bird she had a great experience with?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 01/27/2011 2:08 PM |
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With "at first her points were very brief" - I was referring to the puppy points a year ago. Now she points long enough for me to cross the field, and is steady to shot - not staunch but steady - most of the time to wing (if she goes I can call her off/whoa her) - and sometimes she's steady all throughout. Two weeks ago she was holding a point for at least 5 minutes while we looked and called for her thinking she had run out of range (see my thread about point vs. recall).
She ran in a HD stake earlier this month and the gunners said she had good range and hunts independently. At the same time she responded well to the few commands I gave her (turning, recall). One time I was even able to whoa her into honoring from 90 feet away and that was a first for us. They did comment on her flagging though!
I would love to put her on chukar. They are more expensive and not always available where we hunt/train. Also, my friend who pays for the hunts keeps/eats the birds so I can't tell him what to order. I will defintely try to get her a chukar when training starts back up in March. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 02/07/2011 2:21 PM |
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Decided to keep hunting her the few more times until in March the season comes to a close.
A friend thinks it may be the anticipation of the chase or catch that makes her flag and feels it will stop once she's steady (not quite there yet).
So she points, say, 300 feet out and we proceed towards her. Yesterday I noticed, for the first time, quite a few points with NO flagging, however, as we got closer, she started flagging. So indeed it may be the anticipation of what will now follow: the flush, the shot, the drop. The anticipation of a chance to chase a bird or catch one (neither happens very often). Or maybe the anticipation of me holding her back if she does start a chase although she's starting to stop her own chase now, like she knows it's wrong. At any rate, anticipation that gets in the way of her focus?
If you are able to use a launcher and launch as soon as she gets scent or flags once she has established point . Don't give her time to think.
That may be the problem...it takes us a few moments to get there usually, so she does have time to think. It doesn't happen too often that they point right in front of us. Hmmm...
BTW the plantation planted a chukar as a surprise yesterday. We did not know about until Tessa found it and we flushed a big bird. Sad to say, it was a flaggy point. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 02/07/2011 2:27 PM |
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Egg beater:
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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