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Sax
Posts:17
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| 08/26/2010 12:50 PM |
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Hi all, I'm a new member. I read for a while to see if this question has been answered, but couldn't quite find it. Forgive me if this is a repeat.
So, first time GSP owner, but have had dogs before (a Golden & a Shih-Tzu) first time real hunting dog. And I'm not extremely well versed in training, but I'm trying to learn.
We are fostering to adopt a 3-4 year old spayed GSP. We've had her a week. She is house trained, obedient (indoors only) and very gentle and loving with people, kids to adult. She has met quite a few medium to large dogs on our walks and has been quite reasonable with them. After the initial guarded sniff, she is even disinterested, if anything.
BUT, she is completely driven by the hunt. On EVERY walk, she is entirely focused on looking for prey, and ignores us entirely, unless we completely stop moving. She really pulls on the lead (we're working on this) and she is just FRANTIC if she sees a cat or squirrel, etc.
Today we were in a fully fenced area, off leash, trying to get her to "play" with another larger dog she has already met a few times, and it was going well. A guy showed up with a little ragamuffin dog, entered the enclosure, and just let it go. Mistake. She went right for it, and after a few "feints" that LOOKED like play, she grabbed it, picked it up and gave it one heck of a shake. We managed to split them up, and she showed no agression to any of us, but everyone was understandably shaken by how fast it happened. Both the little dog and it's owner sustained a few scratches, and I suspect the little one was bruised up, too. Hopefully nothing permanent.
So, I know WE made errors that allowed this to happen, but (and I know this is a big question) how do I go about dealing with this? It would seem my GSP has had no training in this area. We will be starting some formal training in a few weeks...
How do we overcome this POWERFUL prey drive? Any tips?
Thanks! |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3155
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| 08/26/2010 1:23 PM |
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I really have no points or tips to offer...but oh my I am so sorry to hear you have to deal with this...Mine loves to chase squirrels and rabbits but knows the difference in a small dog...we have a family friend with a small dog and have met others at the dog park and I don't have any issues.
I do know that with hunting when the dog see prey/bird they are suppose to stop and point...also there is the whoa command that is taught....my guess is someone with hunting knowledge will be able to give you some great info on training tips for this...
As for on walks I had a puller and the prong collar worked wonders! Part of leash walking is teaching that sniffing the ground is not part of the walk... |
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Sax
Posts:17
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| 08/26/2010 1:32 PM |
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Thanks. As a condition of fostering & adoption, I am not allowed to use a pronged collar, the rescure organization I deal with does not believe in them, I guess.
I'm told that simply stopping every time the leash gets tight and not allowing any forward progress until the leash goes slack will work - eventually. It means I won't get very far for a while, but they do say it works. Willing to try. BTW the previous two potential adopters of this dog "gave up" on her after just a few weeks and sent her back, so she's been bounced in and out of foster 4 times...not fair to her, she needs someone to give her a real chance. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 08/26/2010 2:24 PM |
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What she did to the other dog had nothing to do with prey drive. This is a dog-dog issue. The fact that you had to "get her to play" with another dog makes this obvious. If she choses to not play with other dogs,leave her be. She doesn't have to asociate with other dogs - sounds as if she exhibits avoidance behaviors and this may be a good sign and something for you to be aware of.
As for her being in prey drive all the time - well, I wouldn't call it that. I would call it being in control all the time. She is using her nose to dominate and control the walk.
Stop her from using her nose and you will have better control of her. Keep the nose off the ground - it can be done - I do it with my dogs - they are only allowed to smell if I let them. When this lesson starts to set in she will learn to mostly ignore cats and squirrels.
You say she is obedient indoors only - this is where you need to start. In a more simple term - she is not obedient. I would up the standards real fast and hold the standard high for this dog.
Good luck and keep us informed.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7927
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| 08/26/2010 2:50 PM |
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I agree with pixie on this one. First, get her into obedience training. Do not let her off leash as you need to be able to control her. Start with baby steps and not allot of distraction. Stay consistent and be patient. If she doesn't want to play with other dogs, I wouldn't make her. Don't let her fixate on other animals either. If she starts staring, break the stare and work her on sit or down.
As for walking her you can correct the pulling without a prong, but it is hard. I personally believe folks that forbid the prong had never dealt with a truly hard puller for any length of time. The prong does not hurt the dog and puts you in the driver seat fast. That said, since you can't use the prong first work on keep the dog focused on you. Use high value treats and don't be afraid to reward her when she is looking at you. If she starts pulling don't say anything to her, just turn and go another direction and if she gets pulled by the leash that is ok. The idea is she will never know what to expect from you so she will start paying better attention to you. This method works, but it takes allot of time and patience. Also, do not let her sniff on your walks or eat anything off the ground. I would also teach the leave it command. As it can be transferred to any object whether it is food, a toy, another animal, whatever.
I suspect this dog is pretty insecure as well, so the more consistent you are and the more of a routine you get in with her, the better things will be for you and her. I would also find a good way to get her exercise as it will help as well.
Another option is to find a good animal behaviorist to work with.
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Sax
Posts:17
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| 08/26/2010 3:10 PM |
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Thank you for those careful thoughts. A local well respected dog trainer has offered me this advice:
"Some dogs have a very predatory nature with other (ie small) dogs or small animals. I see this a bit in my dog. I have to be very careful with her (it's genetics more than anything - can't do much about it) and as such, she is ALWAYS on an ecollar when off-leash - just for the one in a million chance that some little dog will pop up out of nowhere and I need to call her back. She is very good with dogs and even small dogs when on leash and focused and working (she walked with a mini dachshund at our last group class walk and even sniffed and licked him) but I would never trust her, if left to her own devices. This dog might be somewhat the same. All I can say is be very careful about introductions to other dogs (probably best to avoid - I, as a rule, don't allow my dogs to greet other dogs when out and about), and be VERY careful about any off-leash time, as training might not override the desire/genetics to chase down something small. If the dog has a very high prey drive then it will be difficult (if impossible) to remove that without being very heavy-handed - like I said, it's genetics and needs to be managed carefully and with respect for the dog's instincts.
Training goes a long way to make the behaviour much more tolerable but this might not be a dog that can be fully trusted." |
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Sax
Posts:17
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| 08/26/2010 3:17 PM |
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| Oh yes, my wording wasn't excellent there, I guess. She wasn't resistant to playing with the other larger dog, and in fact she seemed to be having a good time. I should have said I was giving her an opportunity to play. She was quite friendly with my neighbor's golden - and was fostered with another dog before she came to us. Those two absolutely played together, I watched it. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 08/27/2010 5:34 AM |
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Sorry - I don't agree with the train of thought of the trainer.
The attack on the smaller dog was not prey drive. If this were a rabbit,squirrel,hamster,cat,etc I would agree wholeheartedly. I would be careful when having her off leash. In defense of your dog - it may have been instigated by the smaller dog.
What I will ask you to do is be more active and alert. Those "feints" could have have been just that BUT next time be on top of her. If she thinks you allow something she will do it - if you let her know from her first action she better stay in line then you will have more control of her.
I have a squirrel fest every morning,esp on garbage days. My younger dog is always on the alert for squirrels and cats and I give a leash correction before we see any. He is told right from the start to give it up. He will cock is head and give a stare but he keeps moving and doesn' give me a hard time. It takes time and practice but the dogs do learn if we are serious about the lesson. A running dog in the city will get killed - I am very serious about teaching certain lessons to me dogs.
I know you can get her to where you want her to be - don't give up - be firm.
I agree with texas belle - you will need something convincing for this dog on walks.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Sax
Posts:17
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| 08/27/2010 9:27 AM |
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Again, thanks for your advice. I appreciate being able to draw upon the experience of those from this board in this matter.
Karla (our GSP) is SUCH a sweetheart in so many ways, I know she is worth the effort it will take to train her. She'll come around. |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 09/01/2010 11:40 AM |
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RE small dog, I was often told that GSPs may not do well with small dogs or cats and to introduce them properly and/or cautiously.
Tessa is always in hunting mode when we walk - she doesn't walk she stalks everything. We are "blessed" with a campus full of squirrels and rabbits and chipmunks. We've gotten to the point where she no longer pulls after them, she just looks funny when she walks.
She is cat sharp but plays well with small dogs. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3155
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| 09/02/2010 6:10 AM |
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| I have introduced mine to small dogs from a young age and they have done good...our friend has a boston terrior and we have come across other small dogs at the dog park with no issues even a small squirrely looking one...For mine I think it depends on the cat...my parents barn cats aren't an issue and the stable I ride at has a cat and they no to leave him alone he has no fear of dogs and puts them in their place, he doesn't give the game of chase...Striker met him yesterday and discovered stay away! I think if a cat was coming through our yard they would chase it down... |
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trueblushorthairs
MH
Posts:129
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| 09/03/2010 8:50 AM |
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| It was irresponsible for the owner of the little dog to turn the dog loose and not consider what other dogs were around. Second, like was said, the little dog may have bowed up and caused the whole thing. Like was also said, a prong collar, not JASA, is far less severe than a choke chain and doesn't hurt the dog's throat like a choke chain. I would walk the dog on a pinch/pring collar and only turn the dog loose with an e collar. If the dog makes a hard run at anyone or anything hit her with the collar. A few times will stop this bebavior. However, do not let the dog become collar wise, any aggression to another dog must have some type of repurcussion. |
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Sax
Posts:17
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| 09/03/2010 8:55 AM |
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Well, one could also say it was irresponsible of me to have the dog unleashed when I really didn't know her very well yet, right?
We're working on putting the right animal in charge of the walks (ME!) instead of her, as it has been so far. I think she is getting better day by day. She already only pulls half as hard as she was before, and with some effort on the leash, I can keep her right beside me as we walk.
It's a step in the right direction. |
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wems2371
Eastern Iowa
MH
Posts:170
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| 09/04/2010 4:49 PM |
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| Was there any growling or snapping prior to the grab or was it more of a cat and mouse thing...where the dog looks like it's playing and then goes in? I know my older dog will shake and kill muskrats, possum, rabbit, etc...and even though I have a housecat she adores, she will chase ferals. She IS the sweetest dog on the planet to both dogs and people, but I wouldn't let her offleash with a yorkie, until I got a feel for her intentions...and had her more around those purse type dogs. I have a friend with a very sweet griffon that wouldn't hurt a flea. Last summer he went to an obedience class and they were doing something off leash. He about died when his dog went over and grabbed a little fluff dog and picked it up and carried it off a few feet. They got them separated right away, but it does make me think there's a predatory fur connection. I know my younger dog doesn't know what to make of the pappillions and other purse dogs in our conformation class either, yet she runs with different large breed dogs all the time at training days. I'd do some onleash controlled desensitization through an obedience class. |
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Countrysides Red Hot Roxi
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1176
Snips Bring It On Brandi
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1711 |
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gharner
Middletown, PA
MH
Posts:565
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| 09/05/2010 10:38 AM |
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After you have her walking well on her leash (consistently walking well) I would find a friend with a smaller dog that is calm around other dogs. Begin walking the two dogs together and correct her every time she focuses on the other dog. She may not focus at all, but it would at least begin her socialization with smaller dogs as well as connecting that when a small dog is around she gets to go for a nice walk.
-we have a shih-poo and my sisters both have a shih-poo. Dax is very respectful of them, although sometimes he is a little rough just because of the size difference. They will not hesitate to correct him though and he respects them when they do. He is actually much more respectful around smaller dogs than he is around large dogs. No large dog has ever corrected him for annoying puppy behavior...they just encourage it even more by playing with him. He's been raised with these little fluff balls though so its a completely different scenario. Good Luck! |
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Sax
Posts:17
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| 09/15/2010 10:57 AM |
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Just went to a "Dog park Safety" seminar that was very informative. Something that was brought up was "Predatory Drift". Basically, dogs like Karla (in fact ALL dogs) have some level of hunting instinct hard-wired right into them. So, play between dogs can suddenly become predatory behavior if the right "triggers" occur. So the action between her and the small dog was NOT a "dog-dog thing" it was a hunter-prey thing, as I originally suspected.
In the small dog / large dog scenario we had (OK, small dog / medium dog) it is very likely that Karla did head over to "play" with that small dog with no initial intent to hurt it. Karla exhibited play type behavior (bowing her front down, dancing around, etc.) at first. But she also exhibits very "dominant dog" behavior when meeting new dogs. If the small dog behaved in a way that triggered her predatory instincts (such as rapid, darting movement and high-pitched barks or yips - perceived as a sign of distress or injury, right?), that would explain why she suddenly grabbed it in the middle of it's body and shook it, becasue instinct suddenly took over and said; "Hunt..Catch..Kill."
This exact scenario was described in the seminar, BEFORE I made any mention of what had happened with Karla. The solution suggested in the seminar was - big dogs playing with small dogs always has the possiblity of escalating to predatory behavior, so it isn't a good idea to have them play together, in general. I'm told most "doggy daycares" and some dog parks segregate larger and smaller dogs for exactly this reason.
That said, a large and small dog that are well socialized with each other CAN get along just fine. I had a Shih-tzu and a Golden Retriever and they were best of buddies. Mind you, it was also mentioned that when "Predatory Drift" happens, it happens VERY fast, and it can happen even with dogs that have played well together for years. |
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Sax
Posts:17
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| 09/15/2010 10:57 AM |
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Posted twice in error. Just deleting the second one... |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4476
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| 09/15/2010 11:28 AM |
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Nope -I don't buy into it.
What experience does this person running the seminar have with hunting breeds and if any, which hunting breeds?
I don't buy it b/c dogs know another dog when they smell and see one - GSPs were not bred to hunt dogs.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Sax
Posts:17
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| 09/15/2010 11:39 AM |
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Well, I looked up "Predatory Drift" on the internet after the seminar and everything I read completely backed up what I was taught. The person running the seminar is a well respected local trainer and runs a dog trainer school.
From Wikipedia, on Dog Parks:
"Segregating Large and Small Dogs to Prevent Predatory Drift: Modern dog parks usually have separate play spaces for large and small dogs to protect small dogs from rough play with bigger dogs. Separating the big from the small prevents "predatory drift", a situation in which dogs who are not normally predatory enter prey (attack) mode. Even highly socialized dogs can "drift" into a predatory attack mode, particularly when smaller dogs appear injured or yelp during off-leash exercises. When a dog enters a "predatory drift" mode, it attempts to kill the smaller dog that triggers the event.
From another website:
"Predatory drift, in terms of dogs, is basically when one dog stops seeing another dog as a "dog" and sees it as "prey" to be hunted and killed. It's totally different from aggression, as it is actually predation (and science does differentiate completely between them). It's usually seen when dogs are active or aroused, and basically the "predator" dog sees they "prey" dog running which stimulates the motivation to chase and catch, and the "prey" looks more like a fleeing animal than the dog that it actually is."
And a third source, from a dog training website:
"Predatory Drift is a sudden, and drastic change in a dog's demeanor that is characterized by behaviors associated with hunting small prey. The term is most often used to describe a medium to large dog who has suddenly and uncharacteristically targeted a smaller dog as prey (dinner). Predatory Drift is NOT Aggression, but it can mean injury or death for small dogs."
Full article: http://blogs.dogtime.com/go-dog-training/2009/02/what-is-predatory-drift
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7927
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| 09/15/2010 11:54 AM |
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| Predatory Drift can happen with any breed, but is more prominent with the terrier and herding breeds. That does not mean you can't see it with Sporting dogs too. Normally it occurs as play escalates and the intensity is ramped. Chase games are one area of play that can quickly escalate into something more serious. Younger dogs IMHO seem to be more prone to this type of behavior as opposed to a more mature dog who understands boundaries and is more seasoned. This very well could be what happened, but since I did not see the dogs or the incident it is hard for me to tell. In any case I would proceed with caution with this particular dog. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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