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jlp8cornell
Ithaca NY
MH
Posts:461
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| 02/01/2010 5:51 AM |
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Hi again: I think I may have brought up Max's recall issue in the past but here is what is happening.
He was having problems with his formal recall a couple of months ago. He seemed to snap out of it but the problem started again. At home, my trainers, etc this past week- I leave him, walk 30', call- NOTHING. He sits and looks at me. This problem seems to come and go. We go back to on lead recalls and things seem fine.
I have been trying to come up with reasons. 1) I have never had to correct him for a broken stay so that is not a factor. In fact, he has never broken a sit or down. 2) In the field his recall is beautiful. Howvever, he wears an e collar which I hardly use. I do use the command "Here" in the field vs "Come" for a formal recall. Could this be a factor? 3) His age/sex- 19m intact male- testing me? 4) Another confidence issue?
So Bev and an other obedience people- any ideas? If you have had probs with this, what correction method have you used? Thanks- I appreciate all of your input! Jen and Max |
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Jen
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2440 |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
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| 02/01/2010 8:48 AM |
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I would go back to the check cord. He is confused and not sure what he is supposed to be doing. I suspect since he is so good at the sit stay he is getting in that position and then isn't quite sure so you need to help him understand. He needs to know when you say come it is ok to come to you. I wouldn't worry so much about his front so much right now, but would reward his movement toward you. You can do that by setting up the come, call him, if no response a quick pop with the leash and then turn and run. Let him catch you and then praise and play or treat. Do that for awhile until he is consistently getting up and moving toward you. If he anticipates, don't correct or say anything let him come on to you and say yes, but no play or treat. Take him back and try again. You do not want to discourage the forward movement so be careful in correcting forward movement. Later you can add the the front, but get the forward movement soled first.
I train both Here and Come and have no problems. I use Here in the field and agility and Come is my formal obedience command. The dogs know the difference. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 02/01/2010 9:05 AM |
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It is my opinion your dog is correct in his behavior.
I teach dogs not to move out of a stay command. It is my philosophy that once a dog is told to stay,down,whoa it means don't move UNTIL I come back and tell you to. This builds confidence in the dog that I mean what I say (don't move) and be secure in the fact that I will return. You don't have issues in the field b/c the dog is not in a stay,he is in motion. In the dog's mind stay mean stay and you want him to unlearn the lesson or make it a conditional command - which the dog in unsure of.
You have a really smart and cooperative dog.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
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| 02/01/2010 10:07 AM |
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pixie - That is absolutely true, but in formal obedience dogs have to learn to be able to go from one command to another (change of command). For example, in the drop on recall you give the sit/stay then the come and then change to a drop and back to a come. So, you have to teach the dog to have enough confidence in you the handler to listen to the command and do it. I do know allot of obedience handlers use wait when they plan to issue another command. I have tried that, but honestly once the dog understands the individual commands and knows it is ok to change from a stay to a come when commanded, I have never had problems. When a dog is very smart (like GSPs) and thinking, though, it is a hard concept to teach. Once they get it, however, they are usually rock solid. You will often see a dog that is trying to figure out the come from the sit/stay stand up when you give the come command and stand there not sure what to do, or do what Jen's dog is doing which is just sit. That is good because they are thinking. The handler just has to reassure the dog that he is doing the right thing or show them the right thing to do. Then you will see the opposite where they are anticipating. When we get to that stage I play games with my dogs to trick them, usually by using other words and sound alike words. It is amazing to watch as at first they mess up, but they quickly learn to listen and pay attention for the right command and they love the game.
GSPs are incredibly smart and I love to teach my dogs to think when they are doing obedience. It sometimes takes longer, but when the unexpected happens in the ring I have a dog who can figure things out as opposed to a dog that runs patterns. Granted a GSP may figure it out with an interesting interpretation, but they are thinking. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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jlp8cornell
Ithaca NY
MH
Posts:461
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| 02/01/2010 11:09 AM |
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I will put him back on a check cord and see how it goes. I do work my fronts separate from the recall. We do a lot of fronting exercises which he loves. Lately I have been calling, and when he comes, wait about 1/2 way and then "have a party" with food and toys. He's a funny boy. I will try and make this more of a game. My trainer too thinks he is sitting there b/c he is smart- he figures that is the best thing he can do instead of making a mistake.
Since you brought up "tricking them"- I do that too. I use different words in the same voice as I would "come". Maybe it is too early for that and he is confused. |
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Jen
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2440 |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
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| 02/01/2010 11:33 AM |
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| Jen - Too early to start proofing since he is still not sure of the exercise. I like the run away game with the recall because it also builds speed on the recall. Good luck and let me know how it goes. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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jlp8cornell
Ithaca NY
MH
Posts:461
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| 02/01/2010 11:37 AM |
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| Yes, I will do that. Thanks for the advice! I have my Competition Novice class tomorrow and will work on it. |
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Jen
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2440 |
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MelB
MH
Posts:1217
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| 02/02/2010 6:35 PM |
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I am one that uses "wait" for my recalls or any other exercise that is going to require the dog to move, whether it's a sit, down, come, stand etc., that might be required after they "wait".
My dogs are taught that "stay" means they do not, under any circumstances move from the position they are currently in until I return to them and release them from that position.
I've found, in my dogs anyhow, that it's less confusing for them. Stay's mean relax and chill right there until I return to you and tell you to move, and that could be a bit! Wait means pay very close attention to me because you WILL be told to do something else very soon so you better be ready to act fast!
If he's having some confusion I think, just my opinion, with the come command, but does well with the here command that I'd stick with here and drop come totally working with what the dog responds to best. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
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| 02/02/2010 7:10 PM |
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| The only problem with dropping the here command is Jen uses hers similar to what I use mine for which is come back and check in with me. My come is the formal obedience recall which means come and sit in front of me. I didn't want to have my dog coming and sitting in front of me while hiking, hunting or doing agility, so I have two recall commands that both mean get your behind to me fast, but have different end results. I never use come in the field, but will use here in training when I have my dog off leash and want them to come back close to me. Mine know the difference, but it takes training for them to distinguish the two commands. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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jlp8cornell
Ithaca NY
MH
Posts:461
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| 02/03/2010 5:24 AM |
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Yes, that's why I use here vs come. In the field here means, come over near me- sometimes he goes directly to heel position but no formal front. In fact I never let him sit on the here in front of me b/c I worry he will develop sloppy sits. My best friend has his littermate. We hike together and she uses come and the dog sits right in front of her right leg where the treats are. She does this at obed class and has developed a really bad habit.
I do use wait for recalls, moving exercises and stay for stays. I am also trying to use a different posture for both. recalls- hands at side. stays- hands crossed in front.
we worked on so much at class last night i completely forgot to do a recall. however, his heeling was great. we worked on turns, footwork, body language on left/right/about turns. minimal lagging on the right and abouts which is a huge step. also worked on set-ups, releases. his fav. good class. this instructor has chessies and does field/obed/tracking/etc and is very succesful. So- it helps having someone who understands a dog who gets bored easily since he'd rather be looking for birds! |
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Jen
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2440 |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
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| 02/03/2010 8:07 AM |
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| Tell your friend to either put treats in both pockets are remove the treats from the pockets all together. She also needs to reward using her left hand or both hands. I had that problem with Halo and I only use the come for the formal obedience recall. For her it wasn't a treat issue. I have to do a slightly different stance for her on the recall. When I turn to face her my right foot is maybe a half inch more forward than my left foot. That stance works perfect and I have never gotten dinged by a judge as it really is not a significant stance difference. Now on the drop on recall or the retrieve on flat I don't have a problem. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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MelB
MH
Posts:1217
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| 02/03/2010 8:52 AM |
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| Im' having that issue with Sniper right now. He's sitting off to my left in anticipation of the finish command. Hard to break the habit, but it's doable. If he does come to the front right in the middle, he's still swinging his butt over to the left UGH! LOL Silly dogs |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
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| 02/03/2010 9:36 AM |
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| MelB - First I rarely combine the finish with the recall in practice because of the problems it creates. That said go to Lowe's and get some PVC pipe and build an open ended rectangle to sit right in front of you so Sniper will have a guide on where to sit when he comes in on the recall. Use that for a while and don't finish him just reward. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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jlp8cornell
Ithaca NY
MH
Posts:461
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| 02/03/2010 11:11 AM |
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Bev- My friend is an interesting case. Imagine a spastic red squirrel. That's her. If you tell here what to do/not to do with her hands, she can only remember for about 2 seconds. It took 5 months to get her not to put her hands in her pockets while training! Her dog, my boy's littermate has a ton of potential. I hope the owner can get it together b/c she has a great dog. My boy has no where near her enthusiasm but she has no bird drive.
I have a box made from wood. 3 sided. I use it for straight fronts/ finishes and go outs. I practice my stands (from a sit or down) in it as well b/c Max likes to swing his lil butt out to the left. Nice training tool. |
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Jen
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2440 |
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MelB
MH
Posts:1217
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| 02/03/2010 5:57 PM |
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yeah right now we aren't doing finishes at all. Just coming straight in and tossing a ball between my legs. I am doing simple sits in front of me and a finish from there, but not putting the recall and finish together for a while and see if that helps out.
what I was doing was doing his recalls in the hallway and when I'd tell him to wait, I'd go to the end of the hall and stay against the wall so that when he came in he had to sit straight or he'd be against the wall, that helped a bit.
I had the 3 sided box, he was terrified of it and would not come near it. The PVC might work better. He's got some fear issues of unfamiliar things so I have to watch.
I've told you all,,this dog has issues!!! But under it all, he truly is a great dog, just odd. |
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bravepoint
North Gower, ON Canada
MH
Posts:894
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| 02/04/2010 5:01 AM |
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| We work the finish to the right and left. The dog has to pay attention as they never know which way they are going to be asked to go. I started competing in rally obedience where sometimes the station requires a finish left or finish right. Also, I agree with Bev. Don't always finish. |
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Gail, Moka, Avery, Terra & Rayne
Bravepoint GSPs
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7843
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| 02/04/2010 8:36 AM |
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| MelB - when I first used the PVC with Halo she did everything she could to avoid it. I just made it a bit bigger and kept at it with lots of treats. She got used to it and then I shrunk it back down and no problem. It helped as long at it was there with her, but when I removed it she went back to finishing off my right leg. That was when I decide to try the right foot slightly in front of the left. Her problem though was she would offset to the right, but her sit was very straight. It's funny, but we don't have that problem on the drop on recall or the retrieve on flat. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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