Gracie is about 9 months now...and we have started serious recall work.  I have a few questions about your expectations for response to recall commands.  I understand much of this depends on the training and temperament of the dog, but...general information/experiences would be great.

1) What level of distraction and at what age do you expect a dog to respond to a recall command?  Animals, people, new environments?

2) At what point do you eliminate the check cord?  100% reliable to any and all distraction?  And...how are you certain that the response will be 100%?

3) Is there a method to train or limit the range of the dog when off-leash?  In sight, out of sight, etc?

4) How do you train the pup to respond to recall with prey-drive distraction...rabbits, squirrels, deer, etc. 

I've never trained a pup that was quite as "bold" as Gracie.  She's 100% reliable on the CC with limited distraction, even in new environments.  She's 0% reliable with anything "huntable" around...squirrels, rabbits, deer (which I worry about the most.because of range).  Oh, and she could care less about the normal stim of the ecollar with distraction.  I have great confidence in her off leash without, but no confidence with, huntable distraction.  Therefore, she's on the check cord until further notice.

1) I expect my dogs to respond to the recall no matter what.  If I call them they need to come immediately.

2) I eliminate the check cord once they are trained to come with lots of distractions, they understand what is being asked of them in all different environments and with different distractions, and they come every time on the check cord.

3) I don't limit range on mine, especially my boy, as I want to hunt with him.  Each of my dogs has their own range.  Belle stays fairly close, Ringo and Halo love to move out and cover lots of area.  You can train range, I just never have done it.  Hopefully, someone who has trained range will respond to this one.  If I am in an unfamiliar area with them I will call them back to me more often just for safety reasons.

4) All my off leash training is done with an ecollar and that includes training to leave deer, rabbits, etc.  You have to find the stimulation level they will respond too and use it.  I only have to nick my dogs now if they decide they are going to go after a deer or rabbit.  I don't usually say anything to them, just the nick as a reminder and they break off.  I do it that way as I do not necessarily want them to come back to me, but instead want them to break off and leave the the critter and eventually not go after it at all.  Belle and Halo both will not go after deer as they are around them allot and have learned, but have a hard time with rabbits as I do not get the training opportunity with rabbits quite as much.  Ringo is still learning to leave critters alone and has to be reminded frequently.

Thanks Bev.

For some reason I missed Tessa's E-collar Training Advice post which actually covers several of my questions.  Thanks for replying with additional information to this post.

I guess I was a bit afraid of "turning up" the ecollar until I get a response with distraction present.  Do you do this in conjunction with the a "check" on the CC, or just keep the pressure on until you get a response off-leash?

I keep the pressure on until I get the response.  No CC, but I can read my dogs and also know they completely understand the recall.  If you are concerned then let them drag the CC the first time you try it.  The only issue is most dogs are wise the the CC and will respond with it on, so you end up with the real test happening the first time the CC is removed anyway.

She responds well to a level 2 (out of 10 on a Tritronics Sport Basic G3) with low distraction....and the ecollar is usually not even needed (two whistle blasts and COME only).

If she's on a good scent or sees a squirrel/rabbit, level 2 just doesn't cut it...she basically ignores the stim.  Pixie, to answer your question, I usually check her on the cord at that point...reiterating the command again.

As for reading her, I think I am pretty good at doing that...I guess I didn't understand to increase the stim with distraction.  I will have to try that.

In conjunction with a command, not just pressing the button to make the dog look at you, I assume?

It is enough for me for my dog to turn and start coming towards me. I stop the stimulation at the very first step towards me (which practically coincides with her turning around). It's not important for her to look at me, as if for guidance (?) I just gave her all the guidance she needs ("come").

There are some e-collar approaches (and there are quite a few) that want to dog to become VERY handler-oriented, at all times paying attention and looking for guidance, or even staying within a certain proximity to the handler. Depending on what the dog is being trained for, that is fine. But I find it counter-productive in the field, so I stay clear of it. I just want her to do as I say when I say it but otherwise maintain her range and desire to go forward and hunt.

Francis, you may want to check out the Dobbs site, after studying all e-collar philosophies I found this a good approach:

www.dobbsdogs.com/library/pointing/index.html

Thanks for the Dobbs Training information.  Essentially, this is exactly the method I am using.

I guess the "core" of my question is what level of distraction and what type of progress (with training time, etc) should you expect using the ecollar.  We definitely do not live in an area where I can let her off the cc if I don't have a 100% recall.  If she chases a rabbit or squirrel or deer, she'll either end up in someone's yard, a road, or worse.

And, I don't want to get the ecollar up to the "GSP x-ray" stage if the expectation for a 9 month old pup with high prey drive is to hunt both fur and feather.

TexasBelle, you say that when your pups hear the HERE command, they whip around and high tail it back to you.  But, are you saying that Ringo would do that with a rabbit 10 feet in front of him?  Or would he give chase?  And, what level of the ecollar would you hit him with if he did?

While not new to dog training I am new to the e-collar and bird dogs, so take any advice from me for what it is, a newbie's opinion. I took a lot of pointers from the folks at the local NAVHDA chapter who have been extremely helpful all along. Their consensus seems to be to not use the e-collar until they are 1 year old and just continue the conditioning and check cord work, balancing out obedience and fun. Looking back I think I could have used the e-collar on Tessa at 9 months with no ill effects and I would now be 4 months ahead of the game, but I decided to wait.

Re progress, I'd say it depends on the individual dog and the skill, consistency and effort of the handler, and the number of times the dog gets the opportunity to do wrong (or right). My dog trainer has a "total recall" program where you board the dog with her for 2 weeks and she will get a 100% reliable recall under distraction on that dog during those two weeks (longer if needed depending on dog), with the e-collar. Here is a link to her site and a video demonstrating what they do (incidentally, on a GSP):

www.pacesettertrainingkennel.com/videos.htm

Re distractions, I would say it also depends on the dog and what constitutes distractions of different levels. With Tessa, distractions are a smell, rabbit shit, a tennis ball, a flying dummy, being very engaged playing with another dog, a bird, a rabbit, a cat, a deer, probably in that order. We have reached the rabbit shit level but past that I am thinking about using the check cord a little longer, at some point in conjunction with the e-collar. I also do not want to use the e-collar yet with the distraction coming from quail or anything in the field (unless it's an emergency situation), because she has been allowed to chase in the field, and I want to use the cc first to steady her on birds. So I assume our reliable recall is still a few weeks away.

Re areas to work your dog in, do you know of any fenced in baseball fields, school yards, playgrounds, sports fields, etc you could use? These usually don't allow dogs, but in our area you can get by during off hours/season and if of course, you clean up after the dog! Is there a hunting club or NAVHDA chapter near you, or fairly near you? Where are you?

Thanks for the information everyone.

Tessa-our "everyday" lives are spent in Ann Arbor, MI.  It is fairly suburban in most areas.  We have a great park system which is awesome for dogs...but it is also populated around all the parks.  I think the population density concentrates all of the rabbits and squirrels in one area   We do have several fenced in baseball fields, etc.  Honestly, these aren't a problem at all.  Very good recall in these areas...but...there isn't really any "prey" around the fenced in areas.  Our hunting, vacation, and free time is spent in Michigan's UP where there is plenty of space and freedom for the pup to run off leash with minimal danger.  But, as you know...training must be done daily...so I'm stuck with suburbia.

Anyways, I think I'll discuss this in more detail with our trainer in early Sept.  I talked to him this week...his suggestion was to hold off on increasing the power of the collar because of her age.  This will be her first bird season, and he wants to see if her prey drive for "fur" decreases as she is exposed to more "feather". 

Thanks again for the great advice.