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TessaGA Georgia
 MH Posts:2387


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| 07/23/2009 9:29 AM |
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So Tessa has been wearing her (uncharged) e-collar for about a month now and we want to go "live" this weekend.
What is the best way to find her baseline (minimum level of stimulation the dog feels)? I have 6 levels of momentary and 18 levels of continuous stimulation. I think the first levels of the 18 are very, very light, as these settings can be used for sensitive dogs, and I thought I start there.
Bev once said she didn't have to go any higher than level 2. Out of how many levels? What settings?
Q: I assume you look for the baseline by using the lowest level after the dog fails to respond to a known command? If no response, repeat command and go one level up and see if dog gives any indication it felt the collar? Or do you use it when the dog is neutrally out there? Surely NOT when the dog is doing something - anything - that is a desired behavior (such as being on point, coming towards handler, etc)?
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7844


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| 07/23/2009 11:51 AM |
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What I did was give the command (here) and when Halo did not respond I pressed the button and held it down. If still no response, I turned it up one time continuing to hold the button down and so on until I got a flicker of response. The response might be a twinge or a jump, or they might look back at you or come toward you. In my case it was the twinge. If the dog turns back to you it is important that you immediately release the button as the training response is to come back to you. If you get the twinge, but not look or come back to you just continue to hold. Don't give the command again. Watch them and as soon as they turn toward you release the button. It was level 2 out of 18 continuous. When I tried it on me it didn't seem like much, but it worked. That was with Halo. With Ringo it was initially level 4 to get his attention the first time, but then I was able to back it down and only use level 2 with him too. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7844


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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4450


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| 07/23/2009 12:49 PM |
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You will find that in different mind frames a dog will have a higher or lower threshold. I CC in a different way. I pressure train first. I teach the dog how to turn off the collar by performing the command. I pressure condition to here and sit. I find it transfers nicely to correction training. I also find that the dog will perform more timely when trained this way. The method I use is Evan Graham's method. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA Georgia
 MH Posts:2387


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| 07/23/2009 1:07 PM |
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Thanks, Bev, this makes sense now. I was planning on using it at the rental park where we regularly go, she usually hunts up rabbits and chases squirrels but I would make sure she isn't doing any of that when I use the collar, and there are no game birds. It'll be more like her running around, or hopefully being really busy eating rabbit shit or doing something that is forbidden, and that's when I'll call her back ... this way I can teach her to come back AND to leave rabbit shit alone. Good advice re where to use it at first, I will need to be extra careful using it on the plantation. The problem there also is low visibility (high sorghum fields), and not knowing if she is on point or not. We "lost" a Vizsla this way on Saturday - gone from sight forever, turned out he was on a solid point. The handler was smart enough not to use any drastic measures. I will definitely refrain from using it there for now. Question though: what if Tessa runs off her field into another group's set-up and I really have to call her back...she's prone to do that. Use it or not? Re first-time reaction: wasn't Ringo the drama king, jumping up in the air? |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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TessaGA Georgia
 MH Posts:2387


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| 07/23/2009 1:13 PM |
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Francine, I am not sure how I will proceed afterwards, but I was just wondering how to go about finding that "baseline" and yes, I can well imagine that the baseline will be much different in the park versus a quail chase. I was thinking doing some low-key training in the park first and see how it carries over to a bigger setup. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7844


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| 07/23/2009 2:02 PM |
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Posted By TessaGA on 07/23/2009 1:07 PM
Thanks, Bev, this makes sense now.
Question though: what if Tessa runs off her field into another group's set-up and I really have to call her back...she's prone to do that. Use it or not?
Re first-time reaction: wasn't Ringo the drama king, jumping up in the air?
First, if you work with her at the park this weekend I am betting the problem of the recall will be resolved by the time you get back to field work. That has certainly been true for me with both Halo and Ringo for the most part. Once I used the ecollar, the recall became rock solid no matter what they were doing (except for chasing deer or rabbits in Ringo's case) or where they were. If, however, it does not I think you could probably use it without any issues. Just make sure there is no way she can associate the stimulation with a bird. That is the concern and why I suggested you use the collar for the first time in a totally different setting. Also, right now you don't want to use the ecollar if she is chasing a bird, even if she is not listening to you. My advice in that case is don't keep calling her while she is chasing as you know she won't come, just let her get it out of her system and once she is done chasing the bird then get her attention and call her back to you.
And yes my laid back boy became the drama king the first time I used the ecollar on him. That first time, once I got it high enough to get a reaction, he went from not noticing to high drama. Pretty funny actually. Now if I need the ecollar with Ringo I use the nick to get his attention. We are working on breaking him from chasing jack rabbits and deer (in this case I do not call him, just nick him to remind him that chasing deer, rabbits, etc is a no no and he gets back to the business of hunting birds). He is pretty good now, but needs a reminder once in a while. His recall is great except with the above mentioned distractions. He will even leave deer and rabbit poop when I call him. LOL |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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TessaGA Georgia
 MH Posts:2387


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| 07/25/2009 9:28 AM |
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Okay, so we went live this morning. There was no rabbit shit today, but four big nasty piles of dog hair (someone has the annoying habit of brushing out his gang of Newfoundlands then leaving the mess behind) and she likes to mess with that too. I called her, as expected she didn't come, I used level one, no reaction. First reaction came at level 7! She jumped up but no yelping or running, and no clingyness afterwards. Her recall was pretty snappy thereafter, I only had to stimulate one more time (again for another recall), and that was at a reduced level (5). So 5 (of 18) seems to be her entry level no major distractions baseline. That's for continuous. Have not used the momentary yet. I have only 6 levels for it, I wonder how they correspond in intensity to the 18? Observations: Overall she seems to be a little more...introspective?...today. Business as usual, range, prey drive, play was all normal but she looks as if she knows something has changed today and is trying to figure out what. The biggest change in behavior was with the "keep-away" - except for a few times (towards the end of the session), she brought the ball back every time AND dropped it in my hand (which is what I have always encouraged but never really enforced - these are tennis ball play retrieves). |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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rrogersgsp Cordelia, California
 JH Posts:20

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| 07/25/2009 11:57 AM |
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One thing I learned from my trainer is to not play any kind of retrieving games with your pup until they have been force broke on birds. He says you want them to be reliable on bird retrieving before you start throwing tennis balls and things for them. What I do with mine is if they want to play keep away I will turn my back and just ignore them, this seems to work for them. Good luck with the collar conditioning. |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7844


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| 07/25/2009 11:59 AM |
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Sounds like things went very well. My bet is you are not going to have to use the ecollar much for her recall. Mine have all figured it out pretty quick. My biggest challenge was Halo (no one thought I could break her of running when off leash), and now she is the best one with the recall. Took me a long time to trust her though. Tessa has realized that you can reach out and touch her. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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TessaGA Georgia
 MH Posts:2387


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| 07/27/2009 10:15 AM |
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One thing I learned from my trainer is to not play any kind of retrieving games with your pup until they have been force broke on birds If that is so, we are way upside down on this one, she is nowhere near force broke on birds but we have been playing with balls for almost a year now. I do keep this at a minimum, much prefering to have her search for dummies or tennis balls in the woods. But yes, I use the same trick with the keepaway, because I don't play that game |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7844


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| 07/27/2009 10:42 AM |
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| So far, I have not had any problems with my dogs retrieving and I start playing retrieving games with them from an early age. Halo and Belle are now force broke to retrieve whatever I throw or ask them to retrieve. I use this mainly in obedience competition. Ringo is not force broke and right now he retrieves anything I ask him to retrieve. I also use the turn your back trick. With Halo she loved the keep away so much when she was a puppy I finally got a chair and a good book and sat in the yard. If she brought me her ball I threw it. Otherwise I would sit and read my book. She learned fast that to keep the game going she had to bring the toy back. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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TessaGA Georgia
 MH Posts:2387


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| 07/27/2009 11:35 AM |
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LOL Bev I thought of it, but felt then thought that bringing a book to a dog outing is like bringing a book to work...seems like a great idea but doesn't feel quite right I NEVER go to the ball, dummy, etc to pick it up and throw it. Like you, if she wants me to throw it, she has to bring it to me, and I insist that she drops it into my hand and not one foot from me. I also only use the "fetch" command when I am 100% sure she will bring the item, or if I can enforce it. And I also always stop playing before she burns out on it, always leaving her wanting to retrieve more. I know I have been doing some things backwards and I know that this will create more work down the road...which is fine by me as we're in it for the fun that it is. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4450


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| 07/27/2009 12:03 PM |
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I guess I must be doing it backwards also. I couldn't even begin to count how many retreives Bregon made before I taught FF, both on land and in water. I am in favor of FF'ing but it is not necessary for pets and hunters if the dog brings it back to within a step or 2 and drops it.FF will cure the keep away game but teaching a better 'here' command will do the same. Intro a dog to game w/o FF and you will see what's in the heart of a dog. Shorthairs are a very forgiving breed and are great for not so sure trainers. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7844


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| 07/27/2009 12:13 PM |
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| I accidentally taught Belle the "I can't reach that" command when we first started playing fetch. Now all my dogs know the command and if they drop the ball or frisbee or whatever too far away (they sometimes do that when they get in a hurry for the game to continue), I just tell them I can't reach it and they will go get it and hand it to me. Belle and Halo now know better than to do that when we are working, but when we are playing they will sometimes drop the object a bit short. It is hilarious because they will drop the object too far out and I will tell them I can't reach it and they will grab the object and place it carefully in my hand if I extend my hand out. If not, they place it right between my feet.They weren't so precise when we started. I also found that once they learned that command it made it easy for me to teach them where I wanted the object placed. Most of the time all three know the fastest way to get me to throw the object again it to get it into my hand in the first place. If I am sitting down, they will put the object in my lap. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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rrogersgsp Cordelia, California
 JH Posts:20

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| 07/27/2009 9:04 PM |
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These GSP's certainly have a natural instict to retreive. FF is a reliable tool for people who compete their dogs in the field and also a hunter who would like to have reliable retreives. In field competition I would say you need to have no doublt that your going to get a good retreive. Once these dogs have been force broke on birds, they know the difference between a tennis ball and a bird. Both are fun but one is a job. |
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Andyrebee
Posts:5

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| 10/15/2009 3:37 AM |
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Hello, I've read alot how the forum discussions on e-collar and I was wondering if someone could help me with a specifiic puppy. He is 6 months old but is starting to appear to be one of those GSP's where if he's intense about something there isn't alot that can stop him or bother him, also he is one that punishment is tricky because nothing seems to phase him. Reading up on E-collar I was planning on using this as a game plan and I was hoping I get could get some feedback. 1) let him wear the collar for a bit without the juice so he get's used to it 2) Once he's used to it not shocking start training him with it, find out where his level is (which based on experience with choke collars will be high) 3) for recall start in the yard with a check cord so i can give a suggestion as what could stop the confusion 4)once i consistantly get him to come and there is no need for help from the check cord, let him off the check cord. 5) Do it my yard till he consistantly does it 6) Take to the park and do it with other dogs present 7) and finally once he does it consistantly at the park with dogs take him to the field, and from what i've read, a field that doesnt have birds because you dont want to have them associate bad things with bird?? Any help is appreciated |
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TessaGA Georgia
 MH Posts:2387


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| 10/15/2009 6:37 AM |
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That's pretty much the way I did it. Except I never had to use the check cord for the recall w/e-collar. You want to make sure the dog fully understands the command before applying the e-collar so there should be no confusion. Also, at first, I applied the e-collar (at her base level) at the same time I called her, continuous stimulation, stopping the stimulation the very second she turned toward me. This requires very precise timing. This way the dog learns that she herself is in control of stopping the stimulation. The faster she responds, the sooner it will stop. Once Tessa was consistent with that, I recalled her without stimulation, using the e-collar only if she chose not to immediately respond, again, using continuous and stopping it the second she started coming toward me (first step, practically). They will soon try to beat the unpleasantness by responding very quickly. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4450


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| 10/15/2009 7:13 AM |
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Andyrebee, I would like you take a step back for a minute,leave all thoughts of the e-collar for now. One reason the GSP makes a great beginner breed is b/c the dog is forgiving.What this really means is that the dog has a higher level of hardness. This means the breed,as a whole, has a higher (prey) drive theshhold and requires a harder correction -thing is, the dog can brush off the higher level of correction and not let it affect it's life,in a negative way,not 1 second after or in the fututre. If the dog is affected negativly then the dog is not as hard as you thought. Reading a dog and a situation is the best training a trainer can have. I prefer dogs like this, but they are not for everyone. Most people would rather have a sensitive dog,not a soft dog,there is a difference. You seem to own,I say seem b/c I can not see you and your dog interact, a dog with strong drives. Would I suggest you use an e-collar to get thru to your dog,NO, I would not,not until about 8 -11 months old. And then I would suggest you seek out a professional. Before you use an e-collar on a dog like this you need to be CERTAIN that the dog knows what you want. Reason is the dog can easily turn toward aggression. The dog will be blamed as having temperment issues and this is not fair,to the breeder or the dog. You also need to be careful of physical punishment. If a dog that is highly driven is denied what it wants this can and probably will turn to fustration and then anxiety. the dog has no way of understanding what is going on inside him/her. Dogs like this need a firm,consistant,persistent trainer. Food does not work,yelling does not work,physical punishment does not work, the only thing that will work is training. This is a potential scenario where the dog is ruined and the breeder is blamed. When in truth, it was the trainer who is at total fault. If you are a die hard hunter then this is a dog for you,if not, give the dog to a die hard hunter and let them do the rest. Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7844


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| 10/15/2009 11:18 AM |
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Andyrebee - I have to agree with pixie. When I read your post, I was thinking your dog might not be ready for the ecollar. I suspect more training and consistency is in order here. With my boy, he is a very high drive dog. He is also persistent and tests me over and over, but I did not use the ecollar on him unitl he was 100% on his commands and I felt his temperament would handle the pressure of an ecollar. You mentioned the choke collar. If he is still pulling and the choke collar isn't working, I would recommend a prong or pinch collar as the next step. It typically works wonders on a high drive dog that loves to pull. You can start conditioning your dog to the ecollar too by letting him wear it. As Tessa and pixie both said, your dog has to understand the command first. I know I do thousands (and I mean thousands) of recalls before I ever get to the ecollar. Starting on leash in a very quiet controlled area and slowly working toward off leash with distractions, but still controlled. I also work focus exercises too, which gets the dogs attention on you. Both of these things will really pay off later if you build a very solid foundation while your dog is young. It is better to progress your training slowly as opposed to having to back up and fix something because you went too fast. Dogs maturity is also something you have to consider. The males mature more slowly than the females and some lines are slower still. Is your dog easily distracted and does he loose focus? If so, you need to keep working basic commands for a while and let him mature. Once he is paying attention to you when you train, then it may be time to start thinking about taking the training to the next level. Also at 6 months you are approaching a time when basically the dog is a teenager (I call that period the puppy stupids). They truly do loose focus and seem to forget everything they have learned. I like to continue basic training right through that period. You will know when they start coming out of it because he will be more focused and seem to make great strides in training. My boy, Ringo, is now 17 months and just starting to emerge from the puppy stupids. He has been worked with an ecollar (I think I started him at about 8 - 9 months), but he also knew his commands before I ever started him on the ecollar. I have not used the ecollar on him around birds, but I have used it for the recall and for getting him to break off chasing game. As far as your original question, your plan was basically right on. Just be sure your dog is really ready before you go there. As I said earlier it is better to progress slowly and not have to back up to fix something where you went too fast. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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