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TessaGA

Georgia

MH
Posts:2387

05/26/2009 10:15 AM
I am wondering if I am doing things backwards... I started Tessa on the "whoa" from the get-go (age 3 months), she was always very good at holding it, even as a puppy - the sit-stay was much more difficult. Mostly, she was put in a "whoa" for photos, or around the house, or in the park for a toy etc. She is now 11 months old and she holds a whoa even when I throw her ball out in front of her, or me walking away from her or around her. I just started stopping her while she's in motion, say, during a walk. I say "whoa" then quickly step in front of her at which point she stops and we can do our routine. She hardly ever steps away but when she does I lift her back to the exact same spot. What are your preferred techniques or combinations thereof (board, crate, table, post, barrel, etc)?

To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]

Texas Belle User is Offline

Austin, TX

MH
Posts:7844

05/26/2009 10:21 AM
My trainer and I have started Ringo on whoa training along with heeling and recall. He was very good on heeling and recall since I have started work on those when he was a baby. The whoa was new, although it was similar to the stand/stay I had been teaching for obedience. We basically started him on a leash with the whoa. He got it pretty quick, so we have progressed to the check cord. He obviously knows what the command means, but still sometimes tests on the check cord. Anyway, the method we are using is pretty much same as what you are doing. I will keep you posted when Ringo and I get back in formal bird school in June. My trainer is training me along with my dog. : )

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna) Yellow Rose GSPs "A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4450

05/26/2009 3:09 PM
hat you do is basically what I do. At 11 months tho I have already raised the pressure level,tho. Understanding whoa is waaay different then proofing it. And a lot more fun.

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

TessaGA

Georgia

MH
Posts:2387

05/26/2009 5:55 PM
Understanding whoa is waaay different then proofing it How so?

To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4450

05/26/2009 6:45 PM
Let's assume your dog knows whoa. You say 'whoa' and she stops. How long will she 'whoa' and how many reminders does she require? You say 'whoa' and you throw something at your dog. Will she 'whoa'? (I don't mean to actual injure her.) You say 'whoa' and leave for say 10 minutes,will she be in the exact spot you left her in? You train with the e-collar and when its on your dog does great with 'whoa'. You take off the collar and the dog starts creep,or something. You put the collar back on and the dog is great again. (you don't have to use the collar,it's the presence of the collar)The dog knows it's job but chooses to goof off. Collar wise yes, but the dog does know what is expected of it. Collar wise is actually a good thing. All these examples are proofing.

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

WildRose

Seymour Texas

MH
Posts:471

05/28/2009 12:19 AM
Posted By TessaGA on 05/26/2009 10:15 AM I am wondering if I am doing things backwards... I started Tessa on the "whoa" from the get-go (age 3 months), she was always very good at holding it, even as a puppy - the sit-stay was much more difficult. Mostly, she was put in a "whoa" for photos, or around the house, or in the park for a toy etc. She is now 11 months old and she holds a whoa even when I throw her ball out in front of her, or me walking away from her or around her. I just started stopping her while she's in motion, say, during a walk. I say "whoa" then quickly step in front of her at which point she stops and we can do our routine. She hardly ever steps away but when she does I lift her back to the exact same spot. What are your preferred techniques or combinations thereof (board, crate, table, post, barrel, etc)? Sounds like you are doing fine with it. I never get serious about whoa breaking myself until a dog is around 2 or so. I also start it very simply at a young age just making the dog stand for a few seconds at a time and then build slowly over time. When it gets to the point I can whoa the dog and get compliance without touching him/her, AND am able to walk at least ten paces away in any direction I'll begin doing it on the move. If they fail I stop them, pick them up, and set them back a few steps. When I get serious about it though I use a long check chord on each end of the dog, with the rear attached to one of my suitcase leads which I make. It applies pressure evenly at both the neck and flank. Once they will stand without any pressure with multiple birds running around and then popping in front of them I'll move to the ecollar on the flank at the lowest possible setting and we'll work on it then with no rope at all. This is not something to hurry or to do in a rush or you can have long term style/confidence issues however. Slow and easy and only raise the demands and pressure when they are ready for more.

There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... .

Klynn7

Blaine, MN

MH
Posts:84

09/24/2009 6:37 PM
Okay....so I need help. This is my 1st GSP and my 1st hunting dog (for my husband). I taught her sit/stay when she was like 10 weeks and am now kicking myself for it! I should have looked into the required training for a gun dog before I taught her the cute house puppy tricks. SO...I start obedience training with her on 10/13. We had a consult with the trainer on Tuesday and she wants me to start working on whoa and heel between now and then. I haven't worked a ton with her yet, but I wanted to know if you guys had any tricks for me to start with. She isn't the greatest walker right now, she pulls the whole way unless I'm lucky enough for something to get her nose so she'll stop for a second. Randi will be doing gun training in January and will perfect everything while she's gone, but I would like to be able to work with her myself before then too.

-Korbey Randi Stella "We long for an affection altogether ignorant of our faults. Heaven has accorded this to us in the uncritical canine attachment." -George Eliot

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4450

09/24/2009 7:48 PM
Why are you kicking yourself? Francine

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

Klynn7

Blaine, MN

MH
Posts:84

09/25/2009 1:46 PM
I'm kicking myself for teaching sit right away. I didn't know any better to be honest, but now I see why people tell me it's going to make it hard down the road for teaching whoa. She just sits..not all the time, but enough.

-Korbey Randi Stella "We long for an affection altogether ignorant of our faults. Heaven has accorded this to us in the uncritical canine attachment." -George Eliot

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4450

09/25/2009 2:14 PM
She is sitting on whoa? She is confused. Your whoa technique may need some refining,maybe less pressure. If you really think the situation is out of control you can make a suitcase handle around her waist and lift her,gently. The dogs who sit on whoa are confused and the trainer needs to be more gentle in teaching what they want. How old is she again? You may be expecting to much to soon. At her age I am sure it is more out of confusion and wanting to do the right thing. Things to look at: how long are you having her hold whoa,how long is a session,how many times a day,how are you correcting. Francine

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

Texas Belle User is Offline

Austin, TX

MH
Posts:7844

09/26/2009 10:45 PM
I agree with pixie. You should be able to teach both sit and whoa. Mine all know the difference. I don't know how you are teaching whoa, but if you have her on a leash be sure you are not pulling up on the leash. Most dogs will sit if the leash is pulled up. That also may be the source of confusion for the dog. Good luck!

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna) Yellow Rose GSPs "A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4450

09/28/2009 6:35 AM
I went back and looked up the pups age. Are you talking about a 15 weeks old puppy? Are you or your training looking to formalize commands at this age? I hope not. Formlization should not start,at the utmost earliest, at 6 months old and for most dogs 8+ months old. And this is dependent on how well the introductions went and the dog's temperment. At this age all any should be doing is introducing what will be formalized later on. Intro to gunfire,birds and some obedience( nopressure) is plenty for a young gundog. I don't know how long the puppy will be at the trainers but I hope you are not expecting a fully whoa broke dog at to young an age. Breaking a dog young can cause issues down the road and can possibly ruin a dog. Again, I don't know what you an your trainer have planned in the agenda. Francine

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

Klynn7

Blaine, MN

MH
Posts:84

09/28/2009 7:03 AM
No! We aren't trying to FORMALIZE, but FAMILIRAIZE her with some basic commands. This is preparing her for basic obedience training that we'll be starting in a couple weeks. While the other dogs will be working on heel like us, when it comes to sit/stay I'll need to be doing stand/stay with her. So working with her now on whoa and stand/stay is to help both of us during the obedience training. She's already been introduced to gunfire by the breeder and doesn't even flinch at a close distance. She'll be doing her formal gun training in December when she's 6 months. I want to do the basic obedience with her so that I can learn how to become a better handler and really just have some fun by working with her. I'm definitely not being hard on her, I was just looking for any tips on how to work with her in advance. The few times I've worked with her (for like 10 minutes at a time) any time we walk and I say whoa, she sits. Again, I'm not expecting much from her, but I'd like her to be a little better at whoa before I get her into the obedience class as advised by the trainer. I haven't really started hard with her, more like playing around. My intent for the post was for tricks or ideas before I start trying to push her a little harder at understanding the difference

-Korbey Randi Stella "We long for an affection altogether ignorant of our faults. Heaven has accorded this to us in the uncritical canine attachment." -George Eliot

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4450

09/28/2009 9:32 AM
A good way to begin with whoa is to stand her,with your hands, and say whoa,have her hold it for 2-5 seconds and release her to start again. You may want to lean over her or you may want to get on your knees.If she sits you can 1 of 2 things. You can anticipateand release or you can put your hand under her tush and gently re-position her. You are dealing with a young puppy. The best to hope for is that you can say whoa,position her and walk away,about 2' in front of her, for a few seconds,maybe 3-8, before you go to her and release her,reminding her over and over with the word whoa and a hand signal. I beleive a 10 minute session in whoa may be to long for this age. It is to be expected that whoa,heel,ect will not be obeyed,especially in an exciting atmosphere. I am a little concerned about your gunfire comment. I am sure the puppy is chasing when the gun is fired. Francine

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

Klynn7

Blaine, MN

MH
Posts:84

09/28/2009 9:36 AM
I guess I just must not be explaining myself well. I'll just trust the our trainer knows what he's talking about and stick to advise from him. Thanks for the tips.

-Korbey Randi Stella "We long for an affection altogether ignorant of our faults. Heaven has accorded this to us in the uncritical canine attachment." -George Eliot

pixie bee

MH
Posts:4450

09/28/2009 9:45 AM
I'm sorry you didn't find the help you needed. Maybe it's possible (more than likely) I am not explaining myself clearly. Maybe a pro will jump in and help?

"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle

Texas Belle User is Offline

Austin, TX

MH
Posts:7844

09/28/2009 11:08 AM
So, what I do (I train for both competition obedience and hunt tests) is teach the stand/whoa first. You teach it just like you do the sit/stay. Stand your dog and tell her whoa. Release after just a few seconds. To release you need either a word or tap on the dogs head. I train first with a word and then later use the tap after they understand the word. My release word is the same for any exercise and it means we are done you can relax now, exercise over. Once you get your pup standing and staying while you are next to her for a few seconds, then add a step out in front. Continue to add distance as she gets better and also continue to extend the amount of time. Eventually you will be able to add distractions. Finally, once you get to a reliable stand stay at a distance, you can start working on the walking whoa. I won't go into details about that now as you have allot to do with just a stand/stay and your pup is still very young. As for heeling, there are many methods. I use a choke chain and start out with the dog sitting in heel position next to me. You can also start with the dog standing in heel position if you prefer. I tell them dog to heel and step out on my left foot giving the dog a little pop if needed to get them in position and moving. Now this all assumes your dog is used to a collar and leash. If not, you have to first get them used to a collar and leash. If the dog balks do not pull the dog. Encourage the dog with happy talk and excitement. Make if fun and be sure and praise and reward. If the dog stays in position praise. If the dog starts to pull you can either give a little pop to correct and then praise or turn and go the opposite way without a word. Eventually the pup will learn where they needed to be and what you are looking for. Heeling is a hard thing to teach and takes allot of time and patience. You also have to remember that the dog does not have a clue what you want them to do, so be sure and praise them when they are in the correct heel position so they know that is what you want. Also, the leash must remain loose when you start and most of the time. Only when you are correcting is the leash tight. If you keep the leash tight I guarantee the dog will pull continuous. The loose leash is the hardest thing for a handler to learn. Good luck and please ask if I was not clear or did not give you what you were looking for.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna) Yellow Rose GSPs "A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato

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