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birdman652001
MH
Posts:194
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| 03/26/2009 11:04 AM |
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anyways, thought i better start this here....
My breeder said my dog and only my dog out of the 7 puppies pointed at a fresh dead pheasant he had brought home and my dog (according to what my breeder said) pointed and then retrieved it and all the 6 other puppies got interested in it... however, i do have two different pheasant dummies or i should say ONE is and the other is a toy fabric pheasant. The dummy has a REAL pheasant rooster coat on it with zip ties on it. only difference is he will retrieve the toy pheasant and bring it back in his mouth whole (meaning he will take the breast like a normal retrieve) and with the dummy with real feathers, he will sniff it and then grab what he can meaning he will grab the feathers and not the WHOLE dummy like taking the whole breast in his mouth. He will then drag the feather on the dummy and if that feather breaks off which it does, he will abandon the body and bring me the feather and wont go back for the dummy. BUT never ONCE did he fail to bring the fabric pheasant... what should i do?
AND to some ppl wondering how old my dog is, hes 4 months going on 5 months in 3 weeks. My breeder said he pointed at 7 weeks old, i dont see it now. HE does stop abruptly with a front leg up, but then goes back to sniffing EVEN when a REAL pheasant is only inches away. he didnt even know it was there. Im talking about lots of wild pheasants here and once they start flying he sees it and doesnt even run after it but go back to sniffing the ground. I got alot of work to do. I got him at 12 weeks old and he was constantly around his parents and the breeder took Remington out with the parents and he did okay with his parents, now hes on his own, he has no clue what to do.
I do have a friend who does train retrievers, and he wants to see my dog and see if he can work with him bc he only trains all labs but will train my dog to retrieve but as far as whoa and stuff, its all on me to train.
discuss!
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7844
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| 03/26/2009 11:54 AM |
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With regard to fetching I would try him on a wide variety of things to fetch, balls, sticks, toys, firsbees, dummies, etc. I would mix it up and make it fun right now. Eventually I would work in the dummy in question, but minus the wings. Once he is bringing the dummy to you, then you can try adding wings, but honestly I don't know what that teaches as the dog knows that isn't the real deal. Eventually you will want to transition to frozen birds, but for now I would stick with variety. At some point you will probably want to force fetch train your dog and if you do Rugergundog has a good thread on how to do that in this section.
I would also suggest you get a copy of Perfect Start and start using their methods for introducing birds, etc. I used this method with my boy and have had great success so far. Of course, we are just at introducing birds and having fun stage.
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 03/26/2009 12:17 PM |
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| When I get a puppy I like to throw out a dead,warm bird for them to retrieve. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 03/26/2009 2:04 PM |
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I do have a friend who does train retrievers, and he wants to see my dog and see if he can work with him bc he only trains all labs but will train my dog to retrieve but as far as whoa and stuff, its all on me to train.
Beyond the first puppy conditioning, aren't retrievers trained completely different, or is the retrieving part approached the same way? |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 03/26/2009 2:15 PM |
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TessaGA,
this is matter of opinion. I train my dogs like retrievers. the retreiver people have the best approach to ff I have seen and this all leads to directional commands,marks,blinds,water work,obedience and handling skills. There are aspects I touch lightly on and some I take hold of with both hands.
Can a retriever trainer help with this dog,absolutely, if he is a good trainer.All the trainer needs to do is assess the puppy's nose,search, drive and cooperation.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Erric
MH
Posts:95
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| 03/26/2009 4:56 PM |
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I wouldn't worry at all about toys and even dead birds. How does your dog act on live birds is the question. I went quail hunting and brought home 18 of them when my dog was 5 months old. She walked right past the cleaning table and laid down. Now at 8 months old I've had her on pigeons 5-6 times and she's an absolute bird machine. The light turned on and she figured out what that nose is for. She has a pheasant and a quail stuffed animal but its just that, a stuffed animal.
Don't worry too much about the stuffed birds or the dead ones, get him on some real birds and let him figure it out. |
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 03/27/2009 6:00 AM |
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Well, most dogs won't point a dead bird, so not sure what the breeder was talking about. When a dead bird is thrown in with most litters of pups it is attacked and wrestled over (what I would consider the normal behavior). Stop using the bumpers with the feathers, just use plain bumpers or tennis balls to play retreive and encourage the behavior.
As far as his behavior with the wild pheasants, hard to say without seeing it, he could very well be tracking them. Pheasants are hard on young dogs, get a few quail or pidgeons and try him on those. I would actually start with an introduction to a live bird, the fact that he isn't trying to chase the pheasants he is flushing is a little worrisome. Where do you live, I might be able to put you in touch with someone that can help you out.
I wouldn't worry about sending your pup to a retreiver trainer until the bird stuff is worked out, the trained retrieve is the same with all dogs, and it will be a lot of obedience. If you are just going to hunt with this dog and not compete, he may not even need it. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 03/27/2009 6:36 AM |
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I think most young dogs are pretty much steady to flush, in the begining, until they build up confidence. I would not worry about this,it may be that the birds will teach the pup to be steady thru flush. After all, why chase something you know you can't catch.
Knowing what you are looking at helps a real bunch.
Force fetch is not the same for all dogs. Pointer trainers are known to use a whoa post and there are some other differences. The end result will be the same tho.
There are dogs that do not like the feel of feathers in their mouths. A dog would need several encounters to decide if ff was the way to proceed.I would try actual birds,altho, I believe a dog should retreive anything it is told to retrieve and at the very least run to a thrown obeject,even if it doesn't pick it up. The drive needs to be there. This can be built up.
Look for nose,drive,search and cooperation. If you don't know what you are looking at,go to a pro for a day. Go on to other forums and read what experienced hunters and trainers have to say about range,cooperation,biddability,ect. Without the experience it is difficult to read a dog correctly.
It's all fun and take it slow. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 03/27/2009 6:53 AM |
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Force fetch is not the same for all dogs. Pointer trainers are known to use a whoa post and there are some other differences
I don't know anyone who uses a whoa post for ff. And Yes the basic is the same the difference in the end is may ret. trainers do more forcing to piles and line, though I know many 'pointer' trainers that do the same when they know the dog is going to be tested, or waterfowl hunting.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4450
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| 03/27/2009 7:24 AM |
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Many pointing dog trainers do not teach sit and they don't teach whoa until a dog is ready to be steadied. They hook the collar onto the whoa post to keep the dog in one place and keep the head up. This keeps a dog from laying down,turing their head,walking away,backing up and squirming.It stops all manner of fighting and avoidance. I do not know of pointing dog trainers that force on retrieves with the e-collar,only using it as a correction,a nick,after overlaying the collar with the ear pinch.
The retriever trainers teach obedience prior to ff and do not have an issue with many of the avoidance techniques. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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birdman652001
MH
Posts:194
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| 03/27/2009 6:26 PM |
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Im getting this training for free. Hes a class mate of mine that handles 15 labs for his on-call guiding for lodges that sign for his serivces. he runs 5 dogs per day per hunt, and his other 5 are at another lodge doing the same thing on the same day. He makes 600.00 a day per service so thats 1,200.00 a day and if i want to, i can run Remington after he's trained and get 300.00 a day for running half days (west SD allows hunting from noon to sundown and after the 3rd week of the season, 10am to sundow.)
so i will visit him and hes gonna asset my dog and see what to tell me to teach him and train. He did say dogs vary at age for pointing but he has seen pointers dont point and still be a good hunting dog. He meant they flush more than poiint.. but He mentioned its rare for pointers to be flushing bc pointers do point and dont get their name for no reason at all... even a crossed bred pointers will point at some level and tolerate it. so i am gonna go in when this snowy march weather is over with and the flooding is gone (espeically from ND which makes our MISSOURI River rise rather quickly bc we've been pretty all time low for years straight.)
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 03/30/2009 5:01 AM |
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Posted By birdman652001 on 03/26/2009 11:04 AM
anyways, thought i better start this here....
My breeder said my dog and only my dog out of the 7 puppies pointed at a fresh dead pheasant he had brought home and my dog (according to what my breeder said) pointed and then retrieved it and all the 6 other puppies got interested in it... however, i do have two different pheasant dummies or i should say ONE is and the other is a toy fabric pheasant. The dummy has a REAL pheasant rooster coat on it with zip ties on it. only difference is he will retrieve the toy pheasant and bring it back in his mouth whole (meaning he will take the breast like a normal retrieve) and with the dummy with real feathers, he will sniff it and then grab what he can meaning he will grab the feathers and not the WHOLE dummy like taking the whole breast in his mouth. He will then drag the feather on the dummy and if that feather breaks off which it does, he will abandon the body and bring me the feather and wont go back for the dummy. BUT never ONCE did he fail to bring the fabric pheasant... what should i do?
AND to some ppl wondering how old my dog is, hes 4 months going on 5 months in 3 weeks. My breeder said he pointed at 7 weeks old, i dont see it now. HE does stop abruptly with a front leg up, but then goes back to sniffing EVEN when a REAL pheasant is only inches away. he didnt even know it was there. Im talking about lots of wild pheasants here and once they start flying he sees it and doesnt even run after it but go back to sniffing the ground. I got alot of work to do. I got him at 12 weeks old and he was constantly around his parents and the breeder took Remington out with the parents and he did okay with his parents, now hes on his own, he has no clue what to do.
I do have a friend who does train retrievers, and he wants to see my dog and see if he can work with him bc he only trains all labs but will train my dog to retrieve but as far as whoa and stuff, its all on me to train.
discuss!
Well I'd say don't worry about it and let him grow up! I'd get him properly introduced to real birds and the gun and when he's ready kill a PR quail or Chukar for him, then see if he brings you the bird or plucks it!
The rest of the time I'd just use a tennis ball or some other similar thing and just play fetc. I wouldn't even do that much unless/until you have a pretty reliable recall on him.
Remember puppies do need to be puppies! CR
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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