I have a bird dog training book I like a lot that advices to avoid planted birds (unless they are quail from a recall box) like the plague, in a young dog (up to one year), because planted pen-raised birds smell more like dead birds and that will mess up the dog's pointing.

But every trainer I have watched or worked with uses planted birds.

Any thoughts?

We don't have a choice down in Central Texas as it is hard to find coveys of wild quail for training.  My breeder is working to get coveys going on their lease property, but that has been slow and painful progress. Most of the folks I train with have mentioned the difference in the smell of live quail versus a dead/shot quail, but not a difference between wild and pen raised.  The dogs also don't seem bothered by pidgeon versus quail. 

The big difference is more in their ability to fly (in wild birds) vs not flying (in pen raised birds).  I think there is more problems if they catch the bird as opposed to the smell difference.

Just my two cents as a newbie in this area.

Pen raised fly, just not as well as wild birds do.  Thus, they are sometimes easier for the dogs to catch.  I just don't see how the cages would make a difference, but maybe. 

Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in here and help us newbies understand better.

Oh I will definitely use them...it's the only way for me to get her on birds regularly for training purposes.  I just remember the sorghum field though...I think I will revisit...this was Tessa's first bird, age 4 month:

From what I have observed, different dogs point at different times just as pixie indicated.  I think I would worry less about the point and just work the dog on getting really excited about birds.  Get his attention with a bird and let him get a noseful (have him down wind), release the bird and let the dog chase.  Keep him on a check cord and when he picks up the scent of the bird don't let him charge in, have someone flush the bird and let him chase it. I think if you get him interested in birds and get him scenting the birds, the point will follow.  Be patient, that is the best thing you can learn in training a dog no matter what type of training you are doing.

I don't disagree in a perfect world, but the last time I looked the world was way less than perfect. In this case birdman already has the pup.  Now we haven't seen the pup, so we don't really know how birdy the pup is beyond what has been posted.  So, if you want to bring the instinct out along with the birdiness, you get them on birds and get them really excited about birds.  You help them to learn to scent, making sure you are downwind, so they get a noseful, they then see the bird and they get excited because they get to chase the bird.  In no time the pup will be pointing and on its way to a good hunting dog.

I don't care how good the breeding of the dog is, there will be things that you have to work to bring out in a dog to shape it to be the companion, hunter, etc that you want it to be. The same is true in the show ring.  You could have a dog with perfect conformation, but you still work to get the dog to show to the best of their ability.  You don't just take a green dog into the ring because they have great conformation, and hope to win (at least I don't).  You spend time letting others go over them, working with them on a steady gait, teaching them to stack and to stand still, etc.  Same thing in the hunting world, you help them become a great hunter.

Personally, I would not be too worried if my dog weren't pointing or doing something else I wanted them to do at 5 months.  At 5 months they are still puppies with plenty of time to learn.

Lauralee, there will always be pups that point as they're being whelped   and some that will never point, and then there is a whole big number of pups that fall in between the extremes, and that start pointing at various ages. I don't think it necessarily means that if you are looking for a good hunting dog, you should go with one that points at that young an age. More goes into hunting too than just pointing...nose, desire, etc. It's more important to look at various breeding programs and the dogs they produced, etc.

Meaning, even if they don't point at 10 weeks, doesn't mean they don't have it in them. Just needs to be awakened.

BTW even the NAVHDA folks said, passing or flunking the NA test doesn't mean they make the best or worst hunting dogs. And they all still need to be trained.

Wildrose: That makes sense now.

Question: Does instinct always show THAT early? Could a pup have instinct but not show it until 4, 5, 6 months old?