Cornbread
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| 03/02/2009 2:51 PM |
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Anyone here use one? I'm just asking because I want to learn, not a fan of cruelty (I'm sure some consider the technic to be so).
Seems like NOT a good idea, but as I've studied it I can see how folks might consider doing it. With water, in the shade, dog never left alone / always attended to (though they can't see you), the length is such that standing is comfortable and the chain is set up to absorb any hard jerking....all in the name of training them to respond to the collar. which leads to teaching the dog to quarter by using a check cord afield.
is this a hunting dog technic only (can't imagine those stearing towards showing doing this) and thus considered barbaric?
the claim is that once on a lead or check cord the pressure applied is 1) not associated with YOU because you were not the stimulus the dog was trying to turn off while on the chain 2) thier response occurs with only a slight nudge.
I assume that most here are fans of leash breaking the way folks normally think of it (all postive and direct encounter with the dog)?
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
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Cornbread
SH
Posts:50
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| 03/02/2009 3:51 PM |
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described to me as:
used to get the dog trained and responding to being lead by the direction given through the collar (a flat leather collar, not talking E collar here). one appeal is that these guys don't use pinch collars (which I like a lot!).
they stay on the chain which is actually two chains one tight btwn two stakes and a 2nd that is 18" long from the horizontal chain to the dogs collar.
it remains there until calm. he may try to tug or jerk and break free and in so doing "turn off" the negative stimulus. once he learns he can't turn it off and accepts it = success.
taking him off before he is calm would be re-enforcing his "bad" behavior which is that fighting and resisting = reward. does that help?
I suppose tiring the pup prior will make it go much better - was described to me at potentially taking 45 minutes of barking, whimpering, tugging, pulling and generally resisting...does this make sense? time on the stake-out chain seem to make more sense than a pinch collar in perpetuity.
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pixie bee
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| 03/02/2009 3:55 PM |
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I know I am slow at times but can you explian why you need or want to do this?
From what I understand from what you wrote you are attempting to teach the dog to follow the person holding the leash. Am I correct?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
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Posts:4452
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| 03/02/2009 3:55 PM |
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I know I am slow at times but can you explian why you need or want to do this?
From what I understand from what you wrote you are attempting to teach the dog to follow the person holding the leash. Am I correct?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
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| 03/02/2009 4:15 PM |
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I would not use the stake out chain for training. I personally don't think it would be effective. All you would be teaching the dog is to stay on the stake out chain. Which in and of itself it fine, but it sounds like you want more out of it than that. If you are teaching your dog to walk nicely on a leash you can do it using any collar you want. Depending on the dog if you use a buckle flat collar it could take a while, but it can be done. I use a choke chain for training to heel, but have from time to time resorted to a pinch collar on daily walks until the dog knows how to walk nicely on a leash. Heeling is all about getting your dog into the proper position and then letting them know that is where you want them with rewards (verbal, treat, etc). The trick to heeling is never keep the leash tight. That will setup the dog to pull. The secret is a pop correction and release, then praise when he is in the right spot. You will need lots of practice and training in different areas, but you will get there.
I hope this answers your question. If not, just ask again. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Bxr-Linda
Oregon
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Posts:171
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| 03/02/2009 4:15 PM |
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Pixie - you're not slow. I don't quite understand this either.
I can't imagine a dog on a tie-out pitching a fit for 45 minutes! This sounds like breaking a wild mustang. |
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Kerplunk105
Bucks County, PA
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Posts:713
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| 03/02/2009 5:26 PM |
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I dont understand at all lol
If I put Leena on a tie out, she would just sit there? |
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Elizabeth
Leena RIP 11/08-9/17/09
Bliss, the Labrador
Tegan, the Weim/Labrador
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Cornbread
SH
Posts:50
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| 03/02/2009 7:54 PM |
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| I think you've answered the main question...this is not a usually accepted practice...I'd heard about it and have had it explained in a way that makes sense but experience is invaluable...thanks to you and this forum for allowing posts on such matters...should make for a better pup, whenever we adopt. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
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Cocoasparents
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| 03/04/2009 2:52 PM |
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I have never used a Stake out chain to train for anything but i use one. When we get to where we are going to hunt i drive in the stake and the clip her up first thing. That way she is under control while I get my vest and water, her water, tie my boots finish my coffee what everneeds to be done and I never have to worry about her running off while i get everything done calmly and safely. Gives me time to safely get my gun ready and avoid any accidents from having to hold her or look for her. She can pee if she wants but never does. she can drink if she wants but never does. She knows we are going to get some birds and she just patiently waits till I'm ready to go. It puts her under my control before the hunt and reminds her that I am the boss and she is hunting for me. That is the only time I use it. She never pulls or freaks out When she is on it. Because she knows fun is just around the corner. I also clip her back up when we get back so she can cool down. If I didn't she would just keep on hunting. Then i can reverse the process and safely put everything away while she is under control instead of being in a hot dog box or running around unsupervised while I unload the gun and put it away. the drink some water and wet her down if needed. Excellent tool if used right. A new puppy may struggle against it, but it certainly isn't designed as a training aid.
Jim |
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
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| 03/04/2009 3:27 PM |
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Many trialers, with multiple dogs will use a "chain gang"...one 20-25' long chain secured at each end by stakes, with maybe 5-6 smaller 5 foot chains attached to it. This would be for trials or hunt tests, to secure the dog for a short time right before its run or right after it has run, to cool down. Its certainly not a training tool, but young pups will benefit from being on the stakeout as they do learn they can't just take off whenever they want, they still get to watch the goings on and get used to sights and sounds of other dogs, horses, people, birds...etc..
Ph |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
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| 03/05/2009 10:23 AM |
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Delmar Smith was the first to write about the use of a tie out or stake out as a training tool. It works very well. It also teaches the dog to "give" to the pressure on their neck.
It teaches a dog that there's no point in pulling endlessly because there will be no benefit from it.
For general purposes it is a great way to secure dogs particularly while you are on the road. Yes you MUST make sure that the dogs have shade and water and that you keep things cleaned up around the stake out because it's a small area typically and gets nasty in a hurry when the dog has to "go".
There is nothing at all cruel about staking a dog out. |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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Cornbread
SH
Posts:50
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| 03/05/2009 12:00 PM |
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I felt like Delmar and now his sons have creditbility. Recently watched their DVD on this subject...it seemed anything but forceful or cruel...I mean the dogs in the DVD bark and whimper and tug at the collar which is "the correction" as its used to train not to resist what will be instruction when the dog is on the lead / check cord. the chain and collar are a stimulus not associated with a command or human. so when they respond to the light collar tug in a training session it's rewarded without negative / punishment from humans. throughout the DVD they are preaching that gentle touch is needed. patience is a must. never any acts of anger or frustration. It seems to work very well for them and they seem to have a good reputation...that's why I was curious to know if it is more a tool used by hunters more than others. seems like anyone could should use it...keep in mind that they also have all kinds of other hands on techniques...this is not a put your dog on a chain and let him go nutz until he's not going nutz sort of tool.
as always, I appreciate everyone's perspective. |
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pixie bee
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| 03/05/2009 12:17 PM |
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I can several negative results from this method,depending on a dog's temperment.
Guess this is where the trianer needs to read a dog to know if another method may be more beneficial. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
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Posts:430
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| 03/06/2009 10:39 PM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 03/05/2009 12:17 PM
I can several negative results from this method,depending on a dog's temperment.
Guess this is where the trianer needs to read a dog to know if another method may be more beneficial.
Boy nice response. The same can be said about every single method of training and training device out there.
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pixie bee
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Posts:4452
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| 03/09/2009 4:45 AM |
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Ryan,
the method of using the chain is still quite unclear to me but the poster suggests that the dog be tied to an 18" chain that is staked to the ground and the idea is to let the dog fight the restraint until it gives in.This is suppose to prevent the dog pulling while walikng on a leash.
Now, if you think this will work, great.And It probably will on a timid type dog. It will also scare the bageebies out of a timid type dog. Not to mention that while on stakes some dogs tend to turn out to be barkers,diggers and circle fiends.
But, it's just my opinion that the temperment of the dog be taken into consideration and that care be given that the lesson that is wanted to be given is the lesson that is given. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
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Posts:430
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| 03/09/2009 6:47 AM |
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Do you have any proof that all chain gang dogs turn out like this compared to the ones that dont.
My GSP was never on a chain gang before he was 2, yet you should have seen my back yard. It looked like the army used it to test fire mortars.
My setter never was on a chain gang before yet ask anyone who meets her she is a very vocal dog.
Besides I would be screaming and barking my head off too when there is a guy shooing birds right infornt of me and I cant go get them.
The chain gang is a very valualbe tool if you know how to use it. Timid and first time dogs go on the ends. You will notice a dog whos been on a chain gang before will lay down so there is no pull or it will lay right on the chain getting a nice belly rub.
Maybe you should try it.
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pixie bee
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Posts:4452
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| 03/09/2009 8:35 AM |
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quote:
Maybe you should try it
No thanks.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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RyanGSP
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Posts:430
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| 03/09/2009 11:19 AM |
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| Then theres no need for your input if you havent tried it. |
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