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shaniac Queensland, Australia
Posts:5

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| 10/07/2008 7:44 PM |
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I have three GSP's, all 2 and a bit yo. I have a boy and a girl, both born June 2006, from the same litter and another boy born in August 2006. These guys are pets, not working dogs, though they're all excellent ratters. I live on 2 1/2 acres, most of which is rainforest. The property is fenced with an Innotek fence. These guys are constantly on the move and get plenty of exercise. They have all had basic training (sit, drop, come, heel) but no advanced training.
The older boy is the alpha dog. In the past couple of months he has taken to attacking the other two with no provocation and no warning. It started out only every few weeks and never when I was around (and I normally always am). The frequency of attacks has been increasing to almost weekly now. I had to go away last week so they were in a boarding kennel. He attacked one of the others every night. My girl has come back from the kennel with a nasty gash on the side of her face. Last night he had a go at her right in front of me. She did nothing to provoke it as she was asleep.
I thought I was doing everything right but obviously I am doing something wrong here. He is the first for everything. The first through doors, the first to be fed, the first to get cuddles. I punish him for this behaviour by locking him in the bathroom for half an hour. I do this because I heard that timeouts are the most effective punishment for this breed due to their clinginess.
I need to resolve this before it escalates. Apart from this he is the most beautifully natured animal. Just half an hour ago he was cleaning the wound he gave her. The advice I have received so far is to get rid of him but I refuse to do that. I am happy to take all suggestions on board and provide any extra information you may need. |
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carlower1 Kansas
 MH Posts:1253


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| 10/07/2008 9:17 PM |
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Sounds to me like you are having dominance and territorial issues. While you claim that he is the alpha dog, appearantly he is having a hard time "sharing" you with his siblings. are your dogs fixed? Could this be a hormonal issue? If your female is coming into heat, then his hormoned may have him acting out violently. (remember when you were a hormonal teen and how angry you felt some of the time?) So far I am finding time out is completly ineffective with my dog, the only thing I am finding with time out is that it breeds time for him to dream up more negative behaviors. But I will say that when he first started getting aggressive with my smaller dogs I got between him and them and let him know that I AM ALPHA, not him and that I will not accept that behavior. I growled, snapped and pushed all while hovering over him, placing myself between him and the other dogs. I would make him get into a submissive position and hold it while I petted and comforted the "injured" party... He was not allowed to rejoin us until he came to me submissively and allowed me to pet both of them. Then I would allow the two dogs to kiss and make up. Meanwhile, anytime I have to leave I make sure that he is shut up in a different room than my ladies. While I do admit that my situation never got as bad as what you are describing, I may have recognized the signs earlier than you did, but then again he may not have as much of an agressive personality.. Meanwhile each of the dogs gets one-on-one special time when I take them with me and do not take another dog (except the ladies ALWAYS go together). Also one thing that has helped with Wachter's interaction is that we go to neutral places (like the kennel club and dog park) and he gets to play with other dogs, giving him socialization time and a chance for another dog to teach him doggy manners. I am big on socializing a dog as soon as possible, both with humans and other dogs outside of our family unit... Since I use my dogs in therapy sessions, it is imperitive that they do not react violently to any situation. I hope this helps Carrie |
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shaniac Queensland, Australia
Posts:5

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| 10/08/2008 5:56 AM |
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Hi Carrie
Thank you for getting back to me so quickly.
All three are fixed so I don't think it's a hormonal issue. I'm tending to agree with you regarding the effectiveness of time outs though so I think I'll stop doing that. I'lll definitely try your trick for breaking them up. It does conflict with other advice I have been given in that you should never treat the alpha dog as anything but #1 but I have read so much conflicting information lately I don't know what to believe. If it has worked for you that's good enough for me. I'm also going to start the one on one special time.
Sylvester was never like this (named after Stallone ... big, boofy and not too bright) until recently. He was always a gentle giant (at 40kg well and truly oversized). Daphne is only 28kg so I'm really concerned with the size difference he could cause some serious damage.

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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4473


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| 10/08/2008 6:04 AM |
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A real problem you have there. Hope you find a way to solve it. One thing that came to my mind in your second post is that if the alpha dog is number 1, where does that leave you? Number 2?,3? There can only be one number 1. Also, altho your dogs are trained in basic obedience, what do they do all day? I am well aware that if dogs are left to their own devices as to how to entertain themselves it is not a pretty picture. There needs to be structure and limits, otherwise they will decide for themselves how things ought to be done.Which is what I believe to be happening. Your 3 dogs look very beautiful, and I was wondering if you could attempt to trim their nails to about 1/2 of what they are in the picture. Nails this long are not comfortable in the house or outside on the ground. Good luck and I hope you keep us informed of the progress I know you will make in time. Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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shaniac Queensland, Australia
Posts:5

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| 10/08/2008 6:32 AM |
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Hi Francine
Sorry, I was talking only in relation to the dogs. I am #1, my partner is #2, Sylvester #3, Daphne & Isaac #4 & #5.
Those three have a charmed life where they get to play all day ... and they do. My partner and I seachanged up here to the Daintree Rainforest which is when we got the first 2. A local breeder asked us to take on the third one so we did. I'm not convinced he's pure bred but he has the most adorable temperament. Eats everything in sight and is getting a bit fat and lazy though. I'm no longer working (retired at 36 ... don't ask me how, I just got lucky) so I get to spend all day with them. I play with all three for at least an hour each day and for the rest of the time they know I am there and it keeps them happy and under control. They run a lot while playing with rope toys, the large one's that all three can grab at the same time, they stalk birds ... haven't caught any yet and take care of the local rat population. In short, they're kept well entertained and are always supervised.
I'll get on to the nails.
Shane |
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kmoalbany
 MH Posts:107


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| 10/08/2008 7:59 AM |
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Pack dynamics are a hard thing to give advice on from just a description. I would also suggest having his thyroid tested. If he is acting in ways that seem almost "rage" like it would be worth while to have a full vet work up, thyroid spefically comes to mind. For a dog that historically didn't have these issues to suddenly be reacting he may have something medical going on, ruling that out first is a good idea. From there seeking a behaviorist to observe your pack and your interactions might be a good idea. In nature the issues in packs happen generally at the bottom -- status seeking dogs are the ones who generally fight. Truly alpha/dominant dogs have no need to fight unless a lower status seeking dog challenges them. SO if you are truly on top that doesn't necessarily rule out fights below you. And having spent the last 2 years living with no fewer than 10 dogs I'm a firm believer that while I can control a lot they are still living creatures and despite my best efforts to be in control of food, affection, play and space it doesn't mean they don't have to have a heirarchy below me that suits them. When a dog in my pack doesn't like their role that is where the issues lie and frankly I've never seen an impact on the order in which I feed them, pet them, give them treats etc. I can only dictate MY position in the pack I can not dictate where they all sort out below me. I would wonder a few things about your pack. 1 - is the boy fighting really doing it unprovoked or are the other dogs making subtle plays for his position. Having a behaviorst come in might help you identify those subtle actions if they are there. OR are you assuming he's alpha when in fact he is not -- it is not always the most bold dog in a pack who rules often the bold, forward "alpha" acting dog is more a wanna be -- it's the dog that can get what it wants with a sharp look or low tail wag that is truly the dominant dog. Most non-dog people would never imagine my alpha female was in charge but she doesn't have to charge dogs or chest bump or invade space to rule my pack she just is in charge. So there is the chance he is not the alpha and is instead a more status seeking dog. On the short term while you look in to medical reasons and/or a behaviorist to give you some concrete techniques my best advice would be to work on keeping every interaction in your home on your terms. A nothing in life is free policy that ALL three dogs only get good things from food to toys to attention to play when they have done something to earn it. If they initiate the play or attention just turn your back and ignore it. I'd do it across the board, life is dictated by your rules and everyone is expected to follow. |
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Katie - GSP Rescue in NY |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7919


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| 10/08/2008 9:14 AM |
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I second what Katie said. I was actually wondering the same thing about whether your male is the true alpha or a wanna be. I have three GSPs and my quiet female is the true alpha in my pack. She just is in charge and no one messes with her. Most folks think she is the submissive one when they see my dogs together. I call her my quiet alpha for obvious reasons.
I would also recommend a book call The Other End of the Leash by animal behaviourist, Dr. Patricia McConnell. It is an easy read and will give you a new perspective on dog/dog and dog/human communication. She also talks allot about behaviour issues as well.
Finally, keep us posted on how things progress. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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shaniac Queensland, Australia
Posts:5

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| 10/08/2008 7:02 PM |
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Thank you for your replies. You gave me a lot of food for thought when I got up this morning. What you say makes sense but I need to digest it more before I comment further. I'm still trying to get my head around everything 4 hours later. I think I'll most likely be back shortly with a long list of questions.
Shane |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4473


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| 10/10/2008 4:43 AM |
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shaniac said: in that you should never treat the alpha dog as anything but #1 Sorry, I was talking only in relation to the dogs. I am #1, my partner is #2, Sylvester #3, Daphne & Isaac #4 & #5. According to this, there are 2 packs in your home. There can be only one. This is where some confusion can be caused amoung the dogs. The only alpha in your home is humans. Get this straight with the dogs and you may see a change. There are so many other things to consider as well. Does anyone rush before you?,push you?, jump on/at you?,nudge you when they want to play?, beg or stare at you for food?,the list can go on and on. Stop behaviors like this and changes will be seen soon. One dog is for sure easier then 3 Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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shaniac Queensland, Australia
Posts:5

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| 10/30/2008 6:29 PM |
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I want to thank all of you for your suggestions. I immediately put into place three of them and am happy to say that Sylvester is once again the happy, loyal and obedient dog he once was. The change in only three weeks is remarkable. The changes we made are:
- We started treating Daphne as the dominant dog. I had thought she was prior to these problems arising but had been advised that a bitch cannot be dominant. I guess I should have trusted my instincts on this. She is also a happier dog as a result.
- No matter whether it was barking at passing traffic (the road is 100m away and they can't see it) or ignoring my commands, whenever he played up I forced him into a submissive pose in lieu of the time-outs. He is getting zero leeway and really seems to be benefiting from the structure.
- When we have to leave them at home alone he is kept separate from the others. I don't think this is required any more but after what he did to her when they were at the kennel I just don't want to take the risk. I've included a photo of the damage so you can see why.

So once again thank you. You have defused a potentially explosive situation and getting rid of him would have broken my heart.
Shane |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:7919


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| 10/30/2008 8:58 PM |
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Shane -
I am so happy things are working out for you and the dogs. It is amazing when they know who is boss.
My breeder told me a long time ago that with shorthairs the bitch is often dominant. It is certainly true with my three (2 females and 1 male), and it is apparently also true with your pack.
Keep up the good work and keep us posted how things progress.
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:4473


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| 10/31/2008 4:48 AM |
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This is really good news. A family that plays together-stays together. When you say you treat Daphne as the dominant dog,what's different about what you do with her then the other dogs? |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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