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CCCCRNR
Missouri
JH
Posts:22
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| 06/12/2008 4:11 PM |
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I'm trying to train my dog(15month old) to stay near and work carefully (I'm wanting ~25yards or less). She perfers to run very fast and hard and range out. And if she bumps a rabbit (or most anything) in the field or woods without locking point first she runs hard to get it and won't listen to whoa when in chase. I have an electronic collar for her which works for almost anything but when she goes into full chase then full shock doesn't phase her. The collar is a 300yard Innotek model.
Does this mean I haven't tought her whoa correctly? (she'll hold whoa if I command it when locked on point even if the bird or rabbit does goes after 'whoa')
Should the electric collar be able to stop the dog cold when at full shock?
How do I keep her in range? Should I just hold the shock, chase her, call her, or just follow and hold the shock? What command/action normally gets a sharp quick recall?
I've tryed her pulling ropes or small tree limbs and working her in the heat of the sun, but it doesn't seem to make her range closer and slow down. Does she just need to get older? Any more Ideas? |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7856
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 06/12/2008 6:59 PM |
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| Take the e-collar and throw it away. Take a bag of birds and the dog for a walk. While the dog is ranging out throw a bird down near you and call the dog back into the bird. Repeat throughout the walk. The dog, if it has any brains at all, will quickly learn to stay near you because that is where the action is. This all assumes that you have the basics well trained in that the dog will come when called and will whoa when near you regardless of the activity. If not, go back to basics and train your dog to whoa. Whoa means stop no matter what. Start out with whoa on a lead. Get to the point where you can walk around the dog, step over the dog, go out of sight of the dog without the dog moving from where it stoped. Head movment is not a problem as long as the feet stay where they stopped. At this point increase the chaos factor and release birds while the dog is at whoa. Once the dog is reliable on lead make the trasition to reliable off lead. Now you are ready to bring the dogs range back in. Go for walks with the dog with that bag of birds and have fun. Once the dog is reliable then introduct the retrive of a shot bird. If you and the dog do the necessary training, you will be a very happy hunter. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/12/2008 7:05 PM |
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CCC,
25 yards? Are you serious?????
Range is preprogrammed at birth. You can teach a dog to hunt closer by planting birds at the begining of the field and tehn in a zig-zag fashion. If the dog repetitively finds birds close and learns to quarter closely you may be able to shorten the range. What is the dog's natural range? What is the reason for the short range? When she is running hard and fast is she searching?Don't bother to use whoa, you are teaching that it is ok to ignore you.
Blowing you off around game is not unusual. I have some experience in this subject. What level of steadiness are you wanting from the dog? Go back to yard work with a plan.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 06/12/2008 7:13 PM |
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I have the question the 25 yards also? If you want a 25 yard dog you might as well get a flusher, and you will probably walk up as many birds as a dog hunting at 25 yards. I am hoping you did your research before getting this dog and chose from close working dogs and not dogs with lots of range, you can bring them in but it is easier to start with a dog that is bred to be close working (flusher).
Has this dog been ecollar condtioned, sounds like it is running through it and turning it off by getting out of range, now it probably thinks the collar means run away faster.
Start over with basic obedience, then find someone to show you how to train your dog if you want to use an ecollar on her. |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 06/12/2008 10:01 PM |
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I'd have to agree with a lot of what's posted here. First a 25yd pointing dog is useless. The reason we have pointing breeds is for them to be able to range out and seek game, point, and hold that game till the handler gets there.
Once you have a dog that's truely honst (doesn't take birds out) and staunch (lets YOU do the flushing) most people suddenly become more comfortable with a dog being allowed to range.
The best dog trainer I've ever known had a very good saying, "I wouldn't want to own a dog that doesn't have the guts to chase rabbits till it's 2 years old. By the same token however I don't want to own one I can't break off of chasing rabbits by the time it's 2.5 or 3. All your pup is doing is demonstrating it has prey drive, and plenty of desire.
Whoa won't do you any good in these situations but "Here" certainly will. Make sure the dog knows what the word means and is reliable in a controlled setting.
When the dog is reliable then move to the field. If you dn't want your dog chasing OR hunting rabbits, then when he breaks for one give a stout "NO" followed by "here". If the dog doesn't respond, reinforce it with the e collar.
If you flat want to break the dog of chasing rabbits, then simply turn the collar way up, and when he breaks to chase give a "NO" and hit him with it. CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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tchrisman
Shapleigh, ME
MH
Posts:108
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| 06/13/2008 2:34 PM |
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I concur with the 25 yards being the problem, not the dog. 75 feet? Where do you hunt? I'd skip the dog altogether and just try to flush birds by walking around.
OK, to get a dog to hunt at 25 yards. Get a 100 foot rope. Cut off 25 feet. Tie one end to your belt. Tie the other end to the dog. You are done training.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself. First get some sense of how to hunt a pointing dog and how much ground they should be covering. Go to a NAVHDA clinic, and volunteer to help plant birds. Then you will see a bunch of dogs in action.
At 15 months you are in a tricky age. The dog is likely feeling like it knows everything. Establishing the hunting "team" is part of the fix. Training stop to flush will help. Maturity will help. Yard work coupled with some back-planting.
I like to shoot the rabbits, they're delicious. I'm dreaming of snowshoe and partridge pie. |
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Marshfield Kennel German Shorthaired Pointers |
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CCCCRNR
Missouri
JH
Posts:22
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| 07/01/2008 9:29 PM |
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maybe obedience is part of the problem, because I don't trust Bonita far away from me.
I think her natural range is maybe 130yd-200yd, if she isn't chasing something, based on the times has slipped out the front door or charged off in the woods before she started to circle around and look back and forth.
The places I can take her to hunt would be family farms back in Tennessee 40 to 150acre and these are largely wooded. And if she isn't staying close she would easy slip off into a different field on the other side of a barbed wire fence making it difficult for me to get to her on point. Also I wouldn't see her on point unless she is close in the woods. I don't want her spending time pointing and attacking skunks or possiums and if she is too far off I'm worried she'll get sprayed or bitten by something and I won't see it and be able to try to call her back to prevent it. I had also planned to do lots of duck and goose hunting with this dog.
I felt I researched the GSP breed well before I got the dog last August. I had seen the show "A Dog's Life" on www.myoutdoortv.com. And we looked at may rescues and read thier information about the breed. We also read the information on the GSPCA website and the North American DK website thinking that these are all the same and assuming all GSP's always breed true to the standards.
We saw a classified add for the pup for $35 no papers. I called the guy in Missouri and found out the mother had been hit by a car when the the litter was weaning and he had 2 girls left from 8 pups which were then 18week old. He said they had been wormed every couple weeks and feed 2 times a day and they were raised outside to get lots of exercise.
I learned quite a lesson here that at 19weeks when we we picked her up it is very late on the social curve for dogs to bond, and I've felt that has something to do with her running to work and play at a great distance and out of sight.
After we got Bonita after a couple email and a few calls, calls and emails started before we got Bonita, I finally called and talked to the president of the St Louis Chapter of GSPCA. He was very nice, and he told me things about this breed that aren't menched at the GSPCA and North America DK websites that if I had known a few weeks sooner would send me running from ever wanting this breed. He told me that GSP breeders put a first prioty on the pointing instict and trainers add the other skills. He also said GSP's should be hunted from horse back and that I was welcome to bring my horse and dog and come to training days and we could get Bonita out running the field and backing his dogs.
This part bothered me because as I had read the discription and historical formation of the GSP was to serve the middle-class hunter on land and in water. So Since when should every middle class hunter have or need a horse and just to field stuff?
Sorry this is a very long post but I thought I should explain the dog and my choise in the breed (and the wild discrepancy the breed clubs temperment and histroy gives the impression of verse what the dog actually is today) and why the land I can use influnces me to train her to work as close as possible.
PS. we have corrently sent her for a few weeks of training at Innisfree Retrievers here in Missouri. So we'll get her back on the 5th so she won't have to be scare by any fireworks in St. Louis on the 4th. |
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WildRose
Seymour Texas
MH
Posts:471
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| 07/01/2008 9:59 PM |
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He told me that GSP breeders put a first prioty on the pointing instict and trainers add the other skills. He also said GSP's should be hunted from horse back and that I was welcome to bring my horse and dog and come to training days and we could get Bonita out running the field and backing his dogs.
This part bothered me because as I had read the discription and historical formation of the GSP was to serve the middle-class hunter on land and in water. So Since when should every middle class hunter have or need a horse and just to field stuff? I'd really like to know who you talked to. I know quite a few of the GSP folks in Missourri and I find it hard to believe any of them would tell you anything that wrong or that stupid.
I hunt for a living, I'm a guide and outfitter. Most of that hunting is done a foot and we do it everywhere from Texas to Washington state! I assure you that a GSP makes a great foot hunting dog.
Both though are generalizations. A GSP is not a lab, and I would not want to own one that could only hunt at the range a lab does. But there are a million gradients in between a boot polisher that's incapable and lacks the drive to ever be out of gun range, and a run off over the hill dog.
Get a check cord, start off with one that's about forty feet long and actually work with your dog on "here". When you get that down, work on teaching the dog to quarter to a whistle or on command. Start off walking in a direction, when the dog is out to the front, give a signal (you decide what it is) to turn right or left and turn that way. Repeat until the dog is responding to the command without you having to turn them with the cc'd.
When you have that down pretty good start running the dog with him just dragging the check cord and see if you can still get consistent responses to "here" and to quartering commands. If you do graduate up to a shorter drag rope, and if that works take it off and see where you are.
He told me that GSP breeders put a first prioty on the pointing instict and trainers add the other skills This too is untrue and wrong headed. "He" whoever "he is" can't possibly have much experience with the breed and make such a comment honestly because it is simply untrue.
Every breeder has different things they put their priorities on. Those priorities will often differ greatly from one litter to the next. The first thing I select for is a dog with strong hunting instincts, second is temperament and personality, third is natural ability, and fourth is trainability. Most of the breeders I know use similar priorities and of course we all have additional criteria.
My guess would be you talked to a Pointer guy, not anyone with any significant experience or understanding of the breed.
Your dog will be what you make it. Your first mistake though was in picking up a $35.00 unregistered pup from a nobody breeder. You will never have any idea what's in the dog's pedigree even breed wise much less what kind of bird dogs and pets they were.
Spend all the time you can with your dog, train your dog, and then trust your dog. From what he sounds like he's a very nice prospect that just needs time, patience, training, and repetition. CR |
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There's a reason I like dogs better'n people... . |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7856
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 07/02/2008 12:02 PM |
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I have to say, you were given incorrect information. And it shows the lack of knowledge from a GSPCA president. Does he own the breed? Does he hunt off horseback? Or is he a show only individual?
What a person does with their chosen breed says a lot about how they "see" that breed. I call it a hidden agenda.
The breed can run big but running bigger than 200 yards is a range that is more so encouraged by horseback rather then requiring horseback. Obedience is the key to any hunting dog, to a degree, depending on what your needs are. For instance, some dogs like to stretch their legs for the first 1/2 hour or so, then they come in naturally. I try to "air" my dog before we do training or hunting, altho fo my dog it doesn't matter, he will run bigger then your dog but he is in contact.Which is worth dicussing in another thread.Many people do not understand how a dog hunts and what is good for hunting may not be good for testing.One reason a good nose is important along with a staunch point.
Sending your dog to a retriever trainer may be a poor choice of trainers, I don't know. The reason is b/c retriever guys use A LOT of obedience and this strict adherance to obedience can ruin a pointing breed.
Teaching "here","come 'round","sit","whoa" and steadying to flush or shot is all a dog really needs to function as pet and hunter. If the dog has a decent nose, decent desire and a little intelligence you have all you need to go hunting.
I think one drawback is that you let your fingers do the walking and not your feet. In other words, you did all the required talking but you didn't watch any GSPs in action.
If you have not contacted your local NAVHDA chapter it may be time to do so. You will get lots of hands on training help and you will see GSPs and other breeds in action.
I think you made the right choice in the breed.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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CCCCRNR
Missouri
JH
Posts:22
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| 07/12/2008 6:20 AM |
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I've heard this breed doesn't mature until 2 years old.
But we're a couple weeks from 16months, and I know 16months is when NAVHDA stops doing the puppy test.
In the last 2 days Bonita has really seemed to click. whoaing, sitting, come, heel...
I don't know if it is just the summer heat and she is just listening to get back inside,
but I was wondering if others start seeing miracles at 16 months? |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7856
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gspx4
Mankato, MN
Posts:16
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| 07/13/2008 12:41 PM |
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The only thing I can add to the discussion is basic obedience is absolutely important. I have used a ecollar, but is rarely and I mean rarely used in first hour or half hour of the morning as gentle reminder to stay within range. Chasing rabbits or squirrels requires a good response to "NO". Horseback hunting is ridiculous statement, never ever say a horse in Iowa and there are many exceptional shorthairs hunting there. |
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To Charlie, thanks for 15 years of companionship. I miss you old dog. |
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