Ajbrown
Michigan
JH
Posts:21
 |
| 12/27/2012 4:37 PM |
|
Hello everyone, I've been on the site since I got my pup (Scout) he's now 15 weeks old. I've been using the clicker training method and it has been working very well. He can sit, down, come, ext..but the main problem I'm having now is teaching whoa. I started off teaching "stay" which he's picked up very quickly but when I say stay he immediately sits down but now I want whoa and I'm having trouble breaking the sitting habit. I've tried more desirable treats when teaching whoa but he's just not getting it.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Also looking for a some great reading material on trainging |
|
|
|
|
smatulewicz
Michigan
MH
Posts:1191
|
| 12/27/2012 4:47 PM |
|
Welcome! I would keep stay and whoa two different commands. Stay being, stay put, whoa being stop whatever you are doing wherever you are doing it immediately and hold your position. Honestly, we overused "whoa" and it lost its meaning in terms of what we'd want it to be in the field so we will retrain with another word. I did, however, come across several good videos on YouTube for when I get ready to train a solid typical "whoa" but since whoa became something else for us we will use "freeze" probably. Do a you tube search and others on here that do regular hunting will have good advice I'm sure ![<img src=]() " src="/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/blue/emoticons/wink.gif" /> |
|
|
|
|
Ajbrown
Michigan
JH
Posts:21
|
| 12/27/2012 5:29 PM |
|
It feels good to be a dog owner!
I get the difference between the two and I've spent countless of hrs on you tube learning as much as possible. I just can't get this little SOB to stand and not sit during the command, maybe I'm just wanting to much too fast. Is it better to do it on a leash rather then inside? |
|
|
|
|
pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
|
| 12/27/2012 6:33 PM |
|
Don't call him a little SOB - it's your teaching that's the problem.
He's confused - probably your fault,too.
You'll get better at teaching,eventually. |
|
"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
|
|
|
Ajbrown
Michigan
JH
Posts:21
|
| 12/27/2012 6:42 PM |
|
I was just joking around, term of endearment where I come from 
More simply? Tonight I went back to square one. During the training session, every time he was alert and standing still I clicked then immediately rewarded. Then started with the my que (hand signal) it's about 50/50 right now |
|
|
|
|
smatulewicz
Michigan
MH
Posts:1191
|
| 12/27/2012 7:59 PM |
|
When Bella was younger, we actually taught "stand" as a command, though we really never used it and would simply say "up" if she was laying down and I wanted her up...but it's an idea for what you're having issues with. But mostly, IMO your dog is sitting for one of two reasons...or both...1.) he knows whoa means he can't do anything and it's much easier to be bored and control himself sitting than standing OR 2.) he simply does not fully know what you expect out of whoa.
I have seen some talk on here of using the barrel method for teaching whoa. I came across a different technique I thought was more feasible for my style...I will see if I can find it. At your pup's age, IMO, especially if out doors...you should be doing much of your training on lead (a longer training lead if you have it) so that you can make sure you are in a position to be reinforcing each command you give. |
|
|
|
|
smatulewicz
Michigan
MH
Posts:1191
|
| 12/27/2012 8:03 PM |
|
| Also, your pup is young yet...you can certainly introduce the idea of whoa right now, but don't expect too much in the way of perfection as he is still learning his world, overly stimulated and excited by everything, learning what you expect of him, and what the consequences are for not following through, learning what to expect from you...etc. I would focus on bonding and basics if it were my pup, and once those things were solidified...I would move to commands that take more self control. |
|
|
|
|
Ajbrown
Michigan
JH
Posts:21
|
| 12/27/2012 10:29 PM |
|
| Thanks for the input, it's greatly appreciated. It's my first time doing this so I'm learning just as much as the pup is. It's fun and rewarding so far, I'm in for the long haul, so I'll just hang on and keep moving forward. |
|
|
|
|
Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7846
|
| 12/28/2012 1:22 AM |
|
So when dogs are confused and don't know what you are asking and they are feeling pressured they will often offer different behaviors to see if that might be what you want. Since sit is so easy and usually the first thing learned they will almost always offer sit. My guess is he is confused and does not know what you want to he is reverting to something he has been rewarded for in the past, the sit. I would start over and break it down into small segments. Train the segments and then put it all together. I suggest you might want to teach a stand so if he goes to sit, you can give the stand command. When I train the stand and they try to sit, I will use my hand or foot to show them what I mean with a stand my putting the hand or foot under they belly. I would also train this on leash right now so you have some control.
Also, I would not get upset with him when he offers a behavior. It means he is trying to figure out what you are asking. I always am pleased when my dogs offer behaviors when they first are learning something new.
Remember he is still a baby, so lot's of patience and if he doesn't get something you need to back up and slow down. Don't go too fast and make sure he really understands what you are asking before you progress. Most of all, make sure you keep the training fun. |
|
Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
|
|
JeremyS
MN
JH
Posts:22
|
| 12/28/2012 12:36 PM |
|
Bev pretty well nailed it. Whoa is typically a little more advanced learning process and when the pup doesn't know what he is supposed to do, he will revert to something that he knows he did right in the past. Typically that is sitting as it is usually the first and easiest thing they learned. I find it easier to wait until after a dog is whoa broke to teach sit.
I also agree with slowing down a bit. A pup at that age doesn't need a ton of training. Just work on some manners, house breaking and a solid recall. Give him at least the first 6 months to be a pup, explore and learn things on his own. Once you get that recall solid, move on to heeling and then I would work into whoa after that. I recommend finding a reputable, modern training process and sticking to it.
"Training with Mo" by Maurice Lindley is a great book/guide. If you prefer DVD's Perfect Start/Perfect Finish is really good (my first recommendation). I do like Joan Bailey's "How to Help Gundogs Train Themselves" not so much as a training guide for the dog, but as some hints/tips for getting yourself into behavior and habits that make training easier.
The hardest thing for any trainer, myself included, is patience. Move the dog along at a pace he sets and learn to read the signs and behaviors he is giving you to help him learn what you are trying to teach. That really only comes with experience. Good luck! |
|
|
|
|
Ajbrown
Michigan
JH
Posts:21
|
| 12/28/2012 1:02 PM |
|
It sounds like I just need to slow down..I'll keep working on the obediance and slowly work on whoa. Again this is my first dog, but couldn't be happier with the breed I picked.
It's nice to here from people that have worked with these type of dogs. Thank god for the Internet lol |
|
|
|
|
smatulewicz
Michigan
MH
Posts:1191
|
| 12/28/2012 1:08 PM |
|
Ajbrown, just enjoy puppyhood right now  It goes by way too fast. Have fun introducing your pup to the world. Have fun with basic obedience and silly pointless tricks (like roll over, shake, treat on the nose lol). Where in MI are you? Where did you get your pup? Did you get him in MI? Mentally noting pup options when we are ready for another. We hope to adopt a rescue, but...who knows. Our pup's breeder has retired and had her females fixed. |
|
|
|
|
Ajbrown
Michigan
JH
Posts:21
|
| 12/28/2012 1:22 PM |
|
Absolutely, plus he's a babe magnet lol. He goes everywhere with me.
I'm from the Flint area, but I live and go to school in Harrison.
I actually got him in Alpena, not from a big kennel or anything but from a nice country sporting family.
I was wondering if I should have him neutered or not, I plan on joining NAVHDA and see how he does |
|
|
|
|
JeremyS
MN
JH
Posts:22
|
| 12/28/2012 1:52 PM |
|
| Can't believe I left off that recommendation. NAVHDA is a great group especially for welcoming new people and helping you and your pup succeed. |
|
|
|
|
smatulewicz
Michigan
MH
Posts:1191
|
| 12/28/2012 2:14 PM |
|
| Ah, we are in the Yoop. We also got Bella from a smaller family breeder that simply bred their family pet/hunters. This is what we wanted so I would do it again in a heartbeat. Bella also goes everywhere with me. You won't regret adding this guy into your life. You're already doing right by him by training and researching, and inquiring about things you can do for him. In terms of neutering. It is really personal preference. If you think you'd like to, many on here with breeding experience will suggest waiting until he is over a year so he can fully mature. |
|
|
|
|
Ajbrown
Michigan
JH
Posts:21
|
| 12/28/2012 4:05 PM |
|
| Where at in the U.P? Family has a house in Calumet and spend a week every summer there. I don't have any regrets on where I got him either. That's what I read too. I'm sure ill have many questions in the next few months. It's crazy how almost over night I became a "dog guy" lol I don't think I'll ever own a different breed. |
|
|
|
|
tgatto
Lake in the Hills, IL
MH
Posts:411
|
| 01/04/2013 3:00 PM |
|
I had the same issue with Sadie with Whoa - she would sit. Have you taught the dog to Heel? Reason I ask, is Whoa is very easy to teach after the dog knows to Heel. Usually, I find the dog associates a stop command with "sit" because it is the first thing they learn, and is enforced all the time (somehow we always come back to "Sit" during Obedience). Anyways, you can begin to demonstrate "Whoa" to the dog after Heel by taking the leash, and looping it in a half-hitch around the belly (need about a 6 - 7 foot leash with a pointer). Heel the dog (click/treat when they walk beside you), have it alternately Sit (and allow it to sit), and Heel (again with clicker). Then command "Whoa" - when the dog tries to sit (as it naturally will), apply slight upward pressure to prevent the dog from sitting. When the dog is standing at "Whoa", click/reward! Continue this until you can command "Whoa" during heel, and the dog will stand without trying to sit. Try walking around the dog on "Whoa" - everything that you would do during "Sit" training. Continue without the half-hitch. If the dog tries to sit, simply reach down, and touch the dog's tummy - you will find it will stand at "Whoa" with the correction. |
|
It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd |
|
|
smatulewicz
Michigan
MH
Posts:1191
|
| 01/04/2013 3:05 PM |
|
| Heeling is actually how we ruined the word whoa and will have to use freeze. Walking, when we would stop at cross walks and have to wait, I would say whoa but wanted her in a sit. So now...whoa is stop and sit. So just don't do that and you're good lol. We are north central UP. Still a ways away from Calumet. |
|
|
|
|
RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
|
| 01/16/2013 12:52 PM |
|
Now you see why a pointer shouldnt be taught sit right away.
I am had the same problem with our setter and still do sometimes in the yard. I just kept standing him back up and he caught on.
With my gsp I used the 2 CC method to train whoa and never had a problem.
You put a stake in the ground or use a tree as your base.
Run a cc from the collar, half hitch around the waster, back to the tree and around then back to you.
Run a CC from the collar to you.
Stand to the front away from the dog and issue your "here" command. When the dog takes a few steps issue the whoa and stop the dog at the same time with the CC thats around the tree and half hitched at the waste.
If the dog tries to sit put pressure on the front CC to keep him standing.
The other thing you can do is put him on a barrel, stack hik up and sweet talk him whoa. He needs to associate whoa with meaning dont move a muscle.
I use "stay" to tell the dog to stay there; he can sit, stand, or lay down as long as he stays.
Whoa means stop and dont move at all period. Dont lift your feet, dont wag your tail, and dont look around. Whoa means dont move. |
|
|
|
|
RyanGSP
MH
Posts:430
|
| 01/16/2013 12:56 PM |
|
15 weeks is pretty young especially for something like whoa. Keep training short and dog get too serious right now.
Id stack the puppy up and sweet talk whoa to him for a few seconds then Issue your release. Dont make him stand there too long right now, id wait until its a little older. |
|
|
|
|