Point taken, since I don't field trial I'll leave the follow-up to those who do.

Yes you did, in your very first post on this thread.

And you continue to do so right up to now.

So you can actually learn something about that which you have become so negatively critical.  While educating yourself would indeed likely cause you to lose many of your misconceptions it wouldn't harm you at all. 

Like myself you would probably come away with a much better overall understanding of the breed and the people who make it what it is.  Just like getting out of your own back yard to hunt would teach you that part of the versatility of the breed which has made GSP's so popular all across the country by seeing what it takes to make a great Chukar dog in Washington or Idaho and what makes a great desert quail dog in AZ or BW dog in Texas or Oklahoma. Greater experience when combined with intellect and a willingness to learn produces greater understanding.  Again, certainly n ot a bad thing to most people's way of thinking

On that at least we can certainly all agree.

Presumptuous is to assume that which you have no basis for. A tracker or GPS is merely a life insurance policy. The average trial dog by the time it's 5 years old is going to have easily between 10,000-25,000 invested in it if it's a dog that run on a pro's string. Unlike the life insurance you carry on yourself this policy doesn't pay off in the case of the dog's death, it pays off by preventing that dog from being killed in an accident while lost, or at least to greatly reduce the chances of such an accident by expediting recovery time.

If you only need to use a tracker or Garmin to locate a lost dog one time in it's entire life it's worth is still immeasurable.

Presumption again is to assume that trial dogs are not "cooperative" or biddable or that they are "self hunting". You've never attended a trial, much less ridden all of the braces in an adult stake even once. If the dog is not working for the handler, is not cooperative how on earth would you ever get one around on a course that isn't just a straight line to the front.

The courses I judged on while in CT were all essentially figure eights or courses with a half dozen turns of 45degrees or more. How exactly is it that an uncooperative dog finishes ahead of the handler on such a course?

A very wise man once told me, "the value of an opinion is equal to the education and experience from which it is formed". Consider then just how much value your opinion has on this subject based on such criteria. Your's are formed out of a predisposed bias with no experience or education.
 

Actually it would be presumptuous to ignore the organization which encompasses more than 3/4 of the breed in the US. There were over 11,000 GSP's registered with the AKC last year as compared to what 750 DK's registered? Again, it is presumptuous and highly flawed to think that someone with your limited experience and knowledge of the breed, how it is used, and the people making up the vast majority of Shorthair owners and breeders in the US has a better understanding of field trials, the dogs and people who trial, than those who actually participate in the sport. Keep in mind that while less than 5% of the GSP's in the US will ever be entered in a trial or hunt test even that very small percentage exceeds the whole of the DK registry in the US.

I've judged hundreds of dogs now in adult stakes in AKC trials. I've also run my own dogs in several hundred adult stakes. In GD stakes when judging I see no more than one dog out of every thirty to fifty that is lost. In AA stakes no more than one in twenty five. With my own dogs I've had to use a tracker to locate them exactly twice, and both times the dogs were found standing on point just where they should have been, to the front, out on a limb, and on a bird.

I do agree that if a dog NEEDED a tracker or Garmin frequently the dog would be of very little use, and would be demonstrating neither good breeding, nor good training. That those types of dogs make up even a significant minority, much less a majority of dogs being trialed in AKC trials or participating in AKC hunt tests is simply not factual in the minds of anyone that actually has an understanding of, or experience in the sport.


 

No it is you who keep referring to this as though it's the standard rather than the exception.  I have repeatedly pointed out that the NEED for a GPS or tracker is the exception rather than the rule.  That's a concept you seem incapable of grasping.

 

Nor did I make such a statement.  However ignoring the majority of the breed and their owners gives you a very narrow minded view of things.

 

Only when the numbers show you to be sadly in error.

Since you refuse to even attend much less enter some AKC field trials and hunt tests how exactly is it you are "seeing the other side" in a fair or informed manner?

The rest of your post is so far from factual it's not worth the time to reply in deatal.

I have been "foot hunting" behing GSP's in the US and abroad for more than 40 years.  I make my living taking people "foot hunting" with the same dogs you claim are not foot hunting dogs.  I have seen or done just about anything that can be done with a dog numerous times.

The difference between us is that my opinions are formed out of education and experience rather than a predetermined bias. 

I have proven to be willing to "see how it's done" and learn from the experience rather than to sit at home on the internet telling others how it's done with no experinece to support the conclusions.

Invest five years of your life and 10,000-25,000.00 in a single dog and perhaps then you will understand the peace of mind that competitors have in their dog wearing a Garmin or Tracking collar.  Till then you really have no concept of why they should or shouldn't be allowed at AKC tests and trials.  Until you are a participant in these venues your opinion on their use is completely irrelevant to those who do and who make the rules we as entrants and judges have to follow or enforce.

I'm glad you enjoy your dogs, but before being so critical of others you really need to get out and get some experience with that of which you are so critical.

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1487/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1487R-59129.jpg

HA! I think I like you Matt, even though we've never met. Now, in the words of the immortal Mr. Gump, "That's all I have to say about that".

Jean

Don't you mean... http://www.hakalugi.net/gallery/v/Our_Kids/May2008/tantrum.jpg.html

Bruce,

Thanks for the invite...maybe I have a big misconception about trialing.   I have done all the training with my 1 year old GSP, and so far she does exactly what I want her to.  I haven't used any traditional methods in her training, but she listens to my commands, points birds, holds point for the most part, and sometimes retrieves.  She doesn't chase deer, ranges about 40 yds.  Couldn't have gotten luckier with her natural ability.  When not at the preserve we hunt in heavy cover in the blue ridge mountains in tons of laurel and greenbrier.  I have hunted all my life, but have only recently had the pleasure of having an awesome dog.  

I would welcome the opportunity to check out something more formal.   If you can add me to a 'list' I would come. 

Since that time I have hunted every year of my life behind them except for one when I was stationed overseas.  I was however fortunate enough to attend several hunt tests in Germany that same year. 

In the years since that first hunt I have hunted behind shorthairs in five foreign countries and 17 states here in the US. I've used them for everything from Wild Boar as bay and take down dogs, blood tracking hogs, deer, and turkey, forest grouse (all three species) as well as Chukar, Huns, Gambel's, Blues, BW's, Valley Quail, Pheasants, Snipe, Rails, and Woodcock.

In the last twenty years I have produced multiple NSTRA CH's, a number of NA prize one and UT one dogs and 14 field trial winners and one Field Champion.  In that same time I've have placed dogs in homes in five foreign countries, and over 40 states here in the US.

I am also a published author on various topics dealing with hunting and field trial dogs, in Gun Dog, Pointing Dog, The Shorthair Chronicle and other publications.

I have attended and/or judged field trials in Texas, NM, OK, AR, MO, IA, NE, SD, MD, and VA.  I have placed or won with my dogs in puppy, derby, GD, LGD, and AA in each of those states excepting VA where I only judged.

That's my experience with GSP's, care to share yours? 

My hunting season is over 180 days per year, my field trial season consumes more than 80 days of the year.  The other 205 days I devote to training and raising dogs. 

Whether or not you value the versatility demonstrated by dogs that actualy are hunted in a versatile manner really is pretty irrelevant to me.  It's more than enough to keep both my dog and hunt customers extremely well pleased.  Since it's they and not you who pay my bills and feed my family I'm sure you can understand your irrelevance.

If I'm in error please explain how and how it is you can spend five to ten thousand a year testing a dog.

But a well trained dog with any experience and good breeding won't push the bird and flush it.  He/she will work the bird, pin it, and hold it till the handler gets there and does the flushing or orders the dog to do so.

You just described a dog that crowds birds and then breaks to chase after the flush.  This is not only not acceptable it's very poor manners.  Such a dog would be through (picked up) very quickly in any AKC or AF trial.

Please be specific and point out exactly where I have EVER indicated any hatred for versatiles.  That would be essentially hating myself and all of my own dogs since that's how we make a living.