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snips
n.ga.
MH
Posts:413
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| 10/20/2009 7:40 AM |
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Congrats on finishing your JH Bev! I also know grounds can be tough in the fall because the Preserves leave the cover tall and thick for hunting season. Rick actually worked Dexter, he is a very nice dog! Hope JH did not undo him much, as he was pretty steady when he left here I ran my 6 mo old GWP at the Tn test and she got 2 legs, and had a ball, pointed 2 coveys on backcourse first day...boy that fired her up! |
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brenda |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 10/20/2009 8:52 AM |
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Francine, I trained with her all year, birds just once a month though, not enough but I do what I can. The thing is, she has been finding and pointing birds just fine. Nothing stellar, but it's there and certainly enough to run the JH. They all say she just has to find and point one bird for the JH. Well, if she finds and points during training, why not enter her?
It was a test for me - I tested her around horses, running with a brace-mate, if nothing else. No idea how that would go but those aspects she passed. I don't consider the test a training day per se (she would be on the e-collar and check cord if it was) - but if she does not qualify, I don't see it as a waste of money and time either, I look at the little good that came out of it, her getting more exposure, which can only help at the stage we are in.
I don't know much about reading condition yet but noticed it was moist in the a.m. and all dry by the time the Juniors ran. The wind was around 10 mph and if you hit the wrong side of the field that would have been a disadvantage. Like Brenda said, the grounds were dense but Aline said if they had cut things down for the test, there would be nothing left after the first frost for later in the season to hunt in. I am trying to get all the scores but I actually watched one dog score 0 on bird finding and pointing and overheard another one didn't find anything either.
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 10/20/2009 9:02 AM |
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wondering if your dog will point is not something you want to discover at a test - this should already be established and a given
Why bother to test then if you know you're dog will perform as expected? For the scoring? Is it helpful for training to know that a dog's pointing was scored 8 or 10 on that particular day? For the recognition?
Why not skip tests entirely and just train, and then hunt? The proof is in the pudding (the hunt). |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 10/20/2009 9:28 AM |
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brenda,congratulations on the 2 legs.
tessaGA,
I know what you're saying and I agree with some aspects.
From my point of view your dog is not ready. The reason I say this is b/c you and tessa are not certain yet of her search pattern. This is as important as a good nose and pointing. When the search pattern is established then it doesn't matter what end of the field you enter,what the conditions are,the dog will work it out. She needs more time getting the search pattern,understanding scent/wind and how to use her nose. She enters a field and is confused and excited and guess which overrides the other? She does not have enough experience focusing on the task at hand.And I can't blame her. I feel you are not being fair to her by putting her in this situation. And I do beleive that harm can be done - the dog learns bad habits and much training can be lost.
I know you're having fun and learning a lot. This is the plus side.
It would be nice,tho, to show Tessa in the best light possible by preparing her.
Sorry for beating a dead horse. Just trying to be helpful.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 10/20/2009 9:44 AM |
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Yes we are beating a dead horse.
I guess you will have the last laugh when I completed the next 6 tests and she doesn't pass any. Will I have ruined her by doing so? I don't think so. Will it delay our training? Certainly. I guess that would be my problem. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 10/20/2009 9:46 AM |
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In response to this post:
"Why bother to test then if you know you're dog will perform as expected? For the scoring? Is it helpful for training to know that a dog's pointing was scored 8 or 10 on that particular day? For the recognition? "
You bother to test b/c of what testing provides the breeder, the dog's possible worth as a breeder and hunter. Scoring is very important,I don't care if it's a 1/2 hour of the dog's life or the entire day. It is very helpful to training knowing how your dog performs under pressure and situations that you may not have encountered prior to test day.
Recognition?
Depends on what you want. I,for one, do want recognition. My breeders worked hard to produce the dogs I have,I worked hard to get them where they are and so did the dogs. I test to prove the breeding worthiness of the parents and my dog's. The only way to prove this is thru testing and having the recognition tells others if I am full of hot air or not.
"Why not skip tests entirely and just train, and then hunt? The proof is in the pudding (the hunt)."
I believe I answered this above.
FWIW, you NEVER know how a dog will perform at a test. Nothing is a given. That's one of the reasons if you are interested in a dog for some reason to go see a dog or speak to those who have.
The best dogs have off days or just palin old bad luck at a test. But, these dogs have proven themselves already.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 10/20/2009 9:53 AM |
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Oh gosh,
you are taking this way to much to heart AND entirly in the wrong light.
I will not have any last laugh. I want the best for you and tessa. How could you say such a thing?
I was actually just thinking that the next test she will pass and you will have so much to write about.
You will not ruin your dog. Ruining a dog is when a dog won't hunt anymore or has become a boot licker or some such other useless creature.
But,you're right,it will delay tessa's training. I know you're in it for fun,since you don't hunt and are not going to breed her,just my perspective. When things go more as planned the time is more enjoyable. That's all. I didn't mean any harm.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 10/20/2009 10:05 AM |
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Oh,I got it.
It was the dead horse phrase.
That was meant towards me beating the issue to the ground with my ideals.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 10/20/2009 10:22 AM |
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I didn't mean to imply that you'll actually rejoice at Tessa's failing. You have always been very helpful and straighforward and I love discussions like these - a lot of food for thought. It's just you're saying after one JH fail, she's not ready. It'll take a few more fails/no passes for me to pull back on the JH for now. At that point we can say, your assessment was the correct one.
Yes it is more enjoyable when things move forward, but I don't mind going backwards sometimes or going slow because it is still a learning process for me, this being my first hunting breed and exposure to the AKC venues.
I am still thinking about getting help from a pro to proceed once the JH is behind us, it is very tempting and Tessa would benefit from it, and it would move as forward more efficiently, but on the other hand, as I said from the beginning, I'd rather be there with her through the process. That's the big appeal for me. I don't want to get a trained dog handed to me without knowing, how exactly did she get there? Without ever seeing her first steady to wing point and other breakthrough moments. Of course, that may be selfish and not very ambitious, and who knows, I might feel different about this as we move along. |
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7919
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| 10/20/2009 10:55 AM |
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This is a good discussion and lots of folks have differing opinions on the JH and when to run a dog and when not too. I was in Tessa's shoes last spring with Ringo when he figured out how to catch the birds. Thankfully that was at the end of the season and we had only entered one other HT which I went ahead and ran. I just figured we would circle back and correct the problem, but the experience we both got in running the tests was worth that. Ringo and I both improved in leaps and bounds each time we ran. So for me it was worth it. After the hunt test season was over I took him to my trainer who had him for about a month. He primarily worked more obedience and mixed in a few birds keeping Ringo on a check cord in those situations. He also let him work the fields allot with no birds planted. I went up on weekends and my trainer worked with me. We ran Ringo, but he also had be handle finished dogs. What a great learning experience for me and my boy. At the end of the month we jointly made the decision to continue to work Ringo in obedience and let him grow up. I was worried about getting him on birds and he told me Ringo knows what a bird is, he just needs to grow and learn discipline and focus. He also told me to run him in the hunt tests again this fall and have some fun. That is what we did. When I entered him in this hunt test (which also happened to be the first one we could go to) I was not convinced he was ready and figured we would be back to busting birds, but I trusted my trainer. Boy was I wrong. For Ringo it was maturity and discipline that he needed. He also had to learn he was hunting as a team and not by himself which goes right back to the work we did in obedience. I think in hind sight the obedience and focus work we did all summer was what made the real difference. I also think the experience both the good and the bad that we had by running 6 or 7 hunt tests through last spring was invaluable. We both learned what we were supposed to do and so we could go away over the summer and work to improve. My personal opinion is run those Junior dogs and run them often and then when the season ends go to work, unless you develop a really bad problem during the season (and I am not sure what that would be with a Junior dog) they are only building more and more excitement in what they are doing. Everything else you can fix with training.
I personally think with a young dog letting them chase a few birds and maybe even catch a few does not hurt them and doesn't necessarily slow down the training that much. I do think it really gets the dog excited about hunting and birds though. And I guess I am not in as much of a hurry to have my dog performing at the highest levels. I have always held them back until they mature regardless of the performance event I compete in and it has always paid off for me. Of course, I do all this stuff for the love of doing things with my dogs and everything else is just icing. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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CrestoneGSP
SH
Posts:42
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4473
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| 10/20/2009 11:58 AM |
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TessaGA,
go back to that post where I said she is not ready and re-read why I said this.
Bev, I understand your goals and how you go about them - I think it's great. Your trainer got Ringo "into" his search.
I would like to say that it is never about the title for me and I don't think anyone should title hunt.
I run tests to guage progress and ability. In order to do this the dog needs exposure and training. How I see it, a dog that is not properly prepared is not showing what their true ability is. We get to see what could be. There's more to it then what could be,should be and would be.
Haiko was my first experience in the versatile testing world. I ran Haiko in a JGHV HZP test 2 weeks before his solms to get an idea of where the holes were.Boy, am I glad I did.Haiko failed the test b/c he dropped the duck. He had excellent scores up to that point.We went back and worked on the dropping issue and for solms he was ready. It was at solms that I discovered something else,Haiko will not point birds that don't fly.To this day he will not point a non-flyable bird.And I won't change this no matter what the test requirements are.
When we did NAHVDA NA it was our real exerience with versatile testing. haiko was 11 months old.
He had swam in the ocean but I could not get him in to swim in a pond.But he did it test day. I had hunted Haiko a few times during the season before the test but had not done a track. Had no idea what was going to happen. Haiko performed the track like I had not thought a dog could,I found out he is scent discriminitive at this test.
So, you see,I too enter tests to "see" but the dog has shown a certain level of performance before hand.
I'd like to comment about cooperation,b/c Bev had mentioned it. I feel that it is something a dog gives b/c they want to and not due to any type of training.I do cooperation exposure scenarios but for the most part, the dog either has it to give or it doesn't. There are so many levels of cooperation as well. A talented and great FT dog has the extreme and best form of cooperation there is to give (b/c it is extreme)and then there is the dog who is bred for the foot hunter. This type of dog is a pure joy to hunt with, never a worry,coopertion freely given and the dog really sees life as a team effort.
My best example of a team is when my dogs will go and search a thicket as wide as 100 yards and hold a point or come back and continue hunting to the front. In a puppy I look for retreiving as a sign of inbred cooperation.
The best advice I can give is develope tessa's search. Watching a great seach is as rewarding as an intense point. If I can,we mowed the grass on our property and the weather calls for rain, I will video Haiko's search this weekend and attempt to post it. Just as a reference.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 10/20/2009 12:20 PM |
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I'd love to see that.
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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GSPoindexter
Posts:6
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| 10/21/2009 3:02 PM |
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Posted By snips on 10/20/2009 7:40 AM
Congrats on finishing your JH Bev! I also know grounds can be tough in the fall because the Preserves leave the cover tall and thick for hunting season. Rick actually worked Dexter, he is a very nice dog! Hope JH did not undo him much, as he was pretty steady when he left here I ran my 6 mo old GWP at the Tn test and she got 2 legs, and had a ball, pointed 2 coveys on backcourse first day...boy that fired her up!
How can running him in JH mess him up? He seems just as steady as before if not more so. Should I not compete in JH tests?
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snips
n.ga.
MH
Posts:413
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| 10/21/2009 8:36 PM |
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If a dog is trained to not chase birds then sometimes in JH they will think they can chase again...If he stands steady and does not chase it will not hurt him |
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brenda |
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