First & foremost- forward run.  Then ability to find birds, then ability to handle.  But forward run is the penultimate criteria.

 

Hi,

I have had a terrible time trying to stay on this forum this morning. Ready to toss computer in the lake!

Anyhow, Sam is not the dog in the Avatar. That is his 1/2 sister Annie. She is the flashy one...lol. She is fast, a good bird finder, but had to stay home this year because I could not afford to send them both. Both of them are by DC Doublerun Cole Bier (so I couldn't help but name my male pup Sam Adams..lol). I think Sam took more after his mom. She is not as flashy as Cole, but very steady, very dedicated to the job at hand. She is also a Field Champion, an All Age winner and 2008 & 2009 Runner Up in the Nationals All Age Championship. If Sammy does that good I will be very proud.

Thanks for the explanation zodiak   That was very helpful to me too. I am proud of Sam. He made people notice him, even though he did not place, and he is only 18 months old.

Here is a picture of Sam...taken on a training day.

Where many judges' opinions are based more on run than any other criteria, many judges, particularly ones asked to judge at that level are hopefully smarter than that. ANY good judge should be a wild bird hunter before he/she is anything. Writing checks, trialing, does not make one know a quality performance.

It's true an All Age dog is going to be put up above a gun dog. Looking to the future of the breed, the All Age dog is the future.

The judge is asked to look into his crystal ball and choose the best dog that fits the standard of the stake, while looking for potential

I DO understand what you are saying. I don't understand what run has to do with the future of the breed. Or why the futuer is left up to hope and the ideals of a judge. A whim, fancy,ignorance or maybe even a grudge could have an effect on the breed,most certainly who wins that day. When a breed's future is left open to this form of judgment there can be little uniformity due to judge's preference and changing times.

What portion of the breed would be considered bred by results of AA stakes or horseback FTs in general?

To put run over a gun dog, as was done to the dog in this post, IMHO, is taking the breed in a different direction than I care to see it go.

but use the wind effectively, work to the front, handle, hit objectives properly(correct wind side), run with speed but purpose, to reach to likely objectives with little handling, to key off the horse, to stay on course, to require relatively little handling and less hacking, to search properly, wind,nose, high head, to not potter but hit objectives at speed without outrunning the effectiveness of his nose, to find points, point them staunchly with style,

I do agree with this as a definition of a gun dog with purpose   (expect switch horse for foot hunter)

 So true!! My dogs participate in Hunting Tests and in Field Trials. One is a point system and the other is judged, but in both the points or the win, place, etc. has to be given by a person who is watching the dog work!
 I think Field Trials and Hunt Tests are very important for our beautiful breed of dogs. They were created and bred for what they do. The show ring is a good thing too, but if I have to make a choice (and finances force me to make choices for each of my dogs) I will choose the performance work over the show ring. A poorly conformed dog cannot do well in the field any more than a popular show ring dog without the will to hunt will make a good dog.
I am not so sure about pedigrees. I am a pedigree enthusiast, and I like to study them, to get really good pedigrees in my kennel. I am still working on that, to get the lines I want to have, to make breeding decisions for the betterment of the breed. I want my dogs to be REALLY good in the field as well as beautiful and good natured representatives of the breed.
My first GSP, however, has a plain vanilla pedigree for the most part. You can look back a ways and find some good dogs, but not a lot there... and she lives to hunt. She is a better foot hunter because we did not encourage that big running style... but she can find birds, and is a great dog.
Julia
 
 
Posted By trueblushorthairs on 11/02/2010 2:59 PM
In the final analysis, we only have people and opinions. Even a point system is based on opinion. In field trials we have winners so we must rely on opinions and honesty of those we pick to judge. There is no other choice. 
 
 

I think we have to agree to disagree on what we like when neither of us has seen the others dogs work, hunt, compete, and neither of us has seen where the other hunts. Where we hunt and trial, a dog that ranges 150 or fewer yards just isn't going to find birds and isn't going to look to great. However, I'm not saying that one of our gun dogs ignores likely objectives, they just do it at a higher speed and don't exactly hunt every square inch, more of a fast edge run preferably on the downwind side. Where we hunt we don't want dogs quartering ever. We don't use whistles to guide our dogs around fields, we expect them to quickly hunt places we don't want to walk and expect them to know where birds should be. Much of the time, whether hunting or trialing, our dogs are either out of site or only show occasionally. They key off of the horse, the sound of our singing, or the sound of the jeep or 4 wheeler.

As far as breeding if one looks at the drag of the breed, you must have All Age dogs, Shooting dogs, and Horseback gun dogs to produce dogs for hunting of this type. Further, a dog can be shortened much much easier than a dog can be made to run. Run meaning ranging 300 yards to a mile.

Field trialing surely is a different world than that of a foot hunter.

Do you foot hunt your dogs? Do you have different expectations if you do? I can't imagine sending a dog to hunt and having the GPS tell me he's on point 3/4 mile away and when I get there, no birds.

According to  Ames statistics there are quit a few unproductive points,by highly prized dogs, following this line of thought, there must be a fair amount of unpointed birds, as well. I can understand, tho, that if run is what is looked for to define the breed then these other faults would come second and third.If they are considered faults.

Higher speed than a gallop? Oh gosh - every square inch? - not likely for my dogs. They have a nose and I expect them to use it! Unless someone is hunting a lab, every square inch would get annoying.Quartering is essential for the foot hunter in heavy fields,altho, we don't expect it that much in dense woods.When woodcock hunting we like max 50 yards,grouse hunting under 100' and we do a lot of stalking(walking at heel) for ducks,rabbit and turkey. Different style of hunting and yet produces a fair amount for the table.And yes, my dogs track with noses to the ground. Sorry, had to tell you. The dreaded curse. No self-respecting, stylish dog would put there nose down

 Whistles, hand signals, are they any different to singing, keying off a horse,sound of 4 wheelers? The dogs are being guided, no matter the form. How I see it, the dog is accompaning me, not me the dog.

Typically, to have the speed you are talking about and to perform day in and day out at those speeds means a dog is built for such speeds. Longer backs and longer loins.Longer than tall with more flexibilty in the loin is for running. A DK is a square dog. Anything out of type IS the drag of the breed. All european testing systems are performance based, therefore eliminating, as much as possible, the drag of the breed. Of course, genetics has a cruel streak.

We sure do hunt different terrain. I would like to see an AA dog in action. No, I would NEVER go to the dark side. But, there must be something to it if so many are into it.I think my downfall is - I'm not an adreneline junky.