You're about two pages beyond any crediblity since you started a new thread in General Discussion saying you weren't going to derail this one any further.

05/05/2009 10:31 AM	Quote Reply Alert
As to not further derail the GPS thread maybe it's a good idea to start another.

Your statement assumes I am taking responsibilty for the derailing.
If you can show that I am fully responsible it would be appreciated.

I have produced proof, look in the other thread.

If the discussion is to be between field trial enthsuiasts only - then should have been stated in the opening post.

Most of what I post is geared to avoid you, you keep dragging me into every volitile post. You appear to have become fustrated with my calm responses on the first page of this thread and then you appear to have become defensive on the 2nd page with the duck search. You derailed the thread with your tangent as to defend your knowlegde and experience of versatility.

No what I'm proving is that you cannot support your slandering of myself.  I have never, and will never show any "hatred" for versatile dogs, or versatile venues.

What you are proving, other than your rampant desire to always have the last word is that you cannot admit when you are wrong, and that it isn't within your character to apologize for lying and misrepresenting my comments.

First off, I have a Garmin and have a lot of experience with it. I have also been a huge GPS user from practically the begining. I think the Garmin is a fantastic unit for hunting and training. And that is where it's use should stay.

I have had many heated debates on this, and understand that I hold a minority view.

I think that the potential for abuse with the Garmin is so high, and the risk of getting caught (practically impossible by anyone with half a brain) so low as to be a serious threat to the integrity of the sport.

AKC states that about 85% of people are for it, and about 15% against it. That's about what I figure are the percentages of people who truly understand the Garmin's capabilities and just how it can be used,,,,and abused.

I won't go into all the ways it can be used to cheat, just what I have thought of could fill volumes. Unless EVERYONE is strip searched, even those back in camp, cheating can easily be done risk free.

And threats of lifetime banning will have no consequence once people realize that the level of proof that AKC must require are unatainable.

Think about it. I see someone using it, and report it. He denies it. Case closed. AKC will not do anything based on someones word. Nor should they as people sometimes lie.

Just what level of proof will AKC need to ban someone? Just how likely is that to happen?

Another thing that troubles me about AKC's upcoming rubber stamp of this unit: AKC is essentially picking winners and losers in the marketplace. By changing the rules to accomodate Garmin, they are essentially putting Tracker out of buissness.

Tracker has supported AKC field events for years. Even I as  a small time trialer have run into a Tracker represenative here in Arizona. We had quite a disscusion on what I liked and disliked about their product.

Garmin has to my knowledge never done a thing for our sport.

Now as I have said from the begining of these debates, I cannot support the Garmin as it is too good. It's capabilities go far beyond what is necessary to simply find a lost dog.

I have said all along that I would support GPS tracking if the right unit came along.

As of now there are 2 new units on the market, that I feel a lot better about. They are about half the price of the Garmin and lack many of the features that make the Garmin so easy to cheat with.

They also appear to be smaller and lighter, and should easily meet the current AKC weight requirements.

Here are the websites:

www.radiofence.com/gps-dog-tracking/roameo-pup-gps-dog-tracker.htm

www.fourallpaws.com/product/ROAMEO-1/GPS_Tracking_for_Your_Pets.html

Although these units in my opinion aren't perfect for use in competition, they are a lot better than the Garmin. I don't think it will be long before others are on the market as well. I would prefer that AKC let the market come to it's standards rather than changing the standards to fit a specific product..... And thus choosing a winner in the marketplace.

Let the companies compete for our buisness. Not the other way around.

Then this whole discussion could be moot in 2010 if we don't get the satellite system fixed.  Here is the news story for those that are interested.

www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/may/19/gps-close-to-breakdown

I have been judging field trials for over 35 years. I have judged National events for most of the pointing breeds in that time, both AKC and American Field. I have been a professional trainer for over 20 of those years.I have seen many things change in the sport of field trialing in that time. We used to lose a lot of dogs every year at these events. I have been present when National Champions were lost and found later dead on busy roads, or just never seen again. Until this happens to you, you have NO idea how devastating it is. The introduction of telemetry has "almost" stopped this from happening. The latest technology of GPS will just make it better. Of course there are ways to cheat. For those disreputable people who have no integrity in this sport they will cheat, no matter what they do it with. I sat in as a board member of the American Field on the only hearing ever held on the misuse of a tracking collar. It only took one witness to convince all of us members on the Board to understand what had happened. This person was suspended  from American Field participation for 10 years. Yes, it can be done and it will be if the GPS is abused. As a National level judge quite frankly I am much more concerned about cell phones. While field trialing I have seen much more abuse from the use of them than I have any other item. I have seen handlers talking to scouts, scouts talking to gallery, and many other abuses. As a society we have become accustomed to seeing cell phones on peoples ears, and we don't think anything of it when it happens at field trials. When I judge an event, I tell every participants on the line that if  I see them or their scouts with a cell phone out that they are done. But I have seen many judges that simply don't care. Many of those judges talk on cell phones themselves while judging.

To not allow GPS technology in our sport IMO would be to not allow us to protect our dogs with the best technology available to us. I think our dogs deserve that.

Terry Chandler

Hi Terry, Charlie.

I am all for GPS technology. Just not the Garmin. It has MANY capabilities that go far beyond what is necessary to simply locate a dog quickly.

The two units that I posted previously are basically stripped down units that eliminate a lot of the Garmins features that could be used for cheating. Because of this the units are smaller and lighter and should easily meet the current weight requirements. I got the specs on one of them, and the ENTIRE collar weighs 6 oz. the strap is probably 1/2 of that weight. These units from what I can see only have the ability to communicate with 2-3 collars depending on the model. They do not have map capabilities. They are basically point and shoot models.

I don't buy into the thinking that since e collars are now lighter that we should raise the weight limit. I think that is an excellent argument for LOWERING the weight limit.

As a plus these new stripped down units are cheaper. the cheapest 2 collar one is only 279.00 !

Like I said before, these units could still be used for cheating but not nearly so much as the Garmin. So even though I already have a Garmin with 2 collars I do not support it's use in FT but would support the new units even though I would have to buy another one if I wanted to use GPS in FT.

On the cell phone issue I agree with you all even though I have never seen it to be a problem personally as I can't remember a FT location that I have been to that had good enough coverage for it to be a problem. Different areas probably have issues with it.

The cell phone thing got me thinking. Some using a cell phone in along with the Garmin would have even more options to cheat.

Imagine someone with a long range antenn a (up to 35 mile range) located in a trailer back in camp or in a house off the trial grounds. His garmin hooked up to a computer with the Topo map programs loaded. A scout or gallery person with a earpiece and an extra garmin collar hanging off his saddle.

The person at the house could talk to the horseback earpiece collar person and tell him precisely where his dog is in relation to where he is!

What would seem like James Bond stuff just a few years ago is now a reality. We need to readjust our thinking to reflect the new technology which will only get better.

You know if folks want to cheat badly enough they will find a way no matter how many rules and punishments there are.  It is a shame that we are even having this discussion. I guess my philosophy is that we should still do what we think is best for the sport and the dogs and hope that those cheaters eventually get caught.  I have found that what goes around, comes around.

You are right. Most people are basically honest, but some need a little help to stay that way. Thats why we have locks on the doors to our houses. Sure they won't stop a determined thief, but it's a deterrent. It keeps the basically honest people honest.

The main propblem with the Garmin is ease of misuse with very little chance of getting caught.

The cheating could be going on right in plain sight and nobody would know.

Now the stripped down cheaper models don't have those capabilities, yet they work fine for finding a dog quickly.

Just because Garmin was the first one on the market doesn't make it the best choice for use in competition. Especially since it will require a relaxtion of the long standing weight limit rule. AND since the other cheaper units WILL meet the current weight limit rule,,,,it would seem a no brainer.

 

Anyone so inclined can cheat right now.  And it doesn't even take technology.  How do I know that scout out there isn't handling the dog?  How do I know the judges are honest?  How do I know the dog I'm braced with is who the handler says it is?  How do I know the bird planter isn't letting a handler know where to take his dog?  Or that the handler wasn't sitting in camp with binoculars watching the bird planter?  Or that the scout didn't put a bird down while he was WAY out there, then call point?

Instead of worrying about the technology, lets embrace it.  MAKE the scouts carry the receiver, with it on.  Now there is a record of exactly where the scout and the dog went during the brace.  Heck, let's give him a cell phone dialed into a conference call with speaker phone on so we can hear if he handled the dog.  (I'm kidding, but...)

You can drive yourself crazy thinking about all the ways someone can cheat.  I assume the vast majority out there are honest.  And at the end of the day, the judges still have to put up the best dog.  Wearing a GPS doesn't make the dog look any better.

Rick