jmb3402 Palmyra, Pa
Posts:12


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| 02/20/2010 10:39 AM |
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I m having trouble with my GSP backing off of pt when she is with her younger brother. I have no trouble at all with her when she is by herself. This was her first year of hunting and she did great! My friend and i have been buying Chukar and taking the dogs out together. She will find the bird and pt for a short period than brake off and come back towards me. This only happens when she is hunting with her younger brother. I had her out pheasant hunting a good bit this year and she never broke off pt even when the younger brother was along. It seems like when we let the chukar out and take the dogs after them, she gets intimidated for some reason. Any suggestions? It just seems like shes a different dog when were out actually hunting gamelands. Than when we let the chukar out she acts intimidated by her younger brother. Its not every time, but a good percent of the time. |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:2503


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| 02/20/2010 10:54 AM |
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Are these pen raised birds? How old are the dogs? Are they wearing an e-collar? Has she made any retreives? When she points, is she holding unitl flush then comes back or is the bird still holding tight? Are the birds mostly flushing or running? Francine |
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Be the type of woman that when you wake up each morning and put your feet on the floor the Devil says - "Oh Crap, She's Up!"
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2229 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2230
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jmb3402 Palmyra, Pa
Posts:12


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| 02/20/2010 12:08 PM |
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Yes they are pen raised birds and they both wear ecollars. The birds hold tight and shes 17 months and i think hes maybe 10 months. She doesnt retrieve most of the time, she lets him retrieve. When i have her alone shes holds point and retrieves every time. She finds the bird, than brakes off pt and backs off before the bird is flushed most of the time when the brother is around. When i hunted the gamelands for pheasants she never broke off pt. Sorry about the never with the gamelands when the birds would start running she would creep on them.When i have her by herself she doent brake point and always retrieves. |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:2503


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| 02/21/2010 7:40 AM |
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Is it at all possble that she was zapped,even lightly, with the e-collar when the other dog was on point,even if she was not near him? How to fix this? I can not give advice w/o seeing the dogs. Maybe someone else can offer some suggestions? Francine |
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Be the type of woman that when you wake up each morning and put your feet on the floor the Devil says - "Oh Crap, She's Up!"
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2229 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2230
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jmb3402 Palmyra, Pa
Posts:12


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| 02/21/2010 1:41 PM |
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No that never happened. I rarely ever zap her and i never zapped her at all when she was on pt or on a bird. |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:4851


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| 02/21/2010 3:40 PM |
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How does your girl and her brother interact when they are not in the field? What do they do if you are just playing retrieve games with them? How do the play together? Does your girl ever back off from her brother in other things they do? This is a guess, but I think two things are going on. First, I think your girl probably is a follower and the boy is the leader or more assertive dog. Second, I think your girl needs some work to build her confidence especially around other dogs. I would recommend a good obedience class for you and her. Obedience will build her confidence and also get her around other dogs so she learns that is ok. I would also let the instructor know about the problem. Lastly, I wouldn't take her hunting with your boy until you get this fixed. The more she backs off in point the more ingrained the behavior will become and it will be hard to fix. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo) and the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo)
Yellow Rose GSPs

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." --Plato
"..It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.." --Samuel Adams |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:2503


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| 02/21/2010 4:30 PM |
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I don't know what the cause is, but I don't think obedience is going to help. This is a natural ability/instinctual behavior,you don't want to have to teach her to point. What I would like to see is the dog being made very 'bold' on birds/game. She is demonstrating a lack of desire and drive. Again, w/o actually seeing what is happening it is difficult to recomend a cure. If the male is a problem for her,hunt them separately. She sounds a bit soft,is she? |
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Be the type of woman that when you wake up each morning and put your feet on the floor the Devil says - "Oh Crap, She's Up!"
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2229 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2230
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jmb3402 Palmyra, Pa
Posts:12


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| 02/21/2010 5:11 PM |
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I think he def is the dominant dog. If we have the birds laying out after the hunt, he ll be at the birds and when she goes up to the birds he grawls at her. They actually did almost get into a fight this year when we were putting a chukar in my friends vest. They were both up on there back legs and were locked up with the front legs and both of them were showing there teeth and growling. They did take a couple of nips at each other but didnt connect. I had her out with another one of my friends GPS and she did awesome never backed off, found every bird we let out. She has a great drive to hunt. Actual pheasant hunting season she did great. I was more than satisfied with her first year of hunting. The brother was along most of the time than and she didnt act that way at all. She acted and hunted as the dominant dog all of pheasant season when he was along.What changed? I dont know |
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Texas Belle Austin, TX
 MH Posts:4851


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| 02/21/2010 5:14 PM |
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| pixie - You misunderstood my point. Obedience won't solve the problem, but if it is a confidence problem it will help build confidence in the dog (and you can use other things to build that confidence, obedience was just a suggestion). If it is a lack of desire, then why is it only when the male is in the picture, but otherwise she is fine. No I don't think it is desire. I still think it is a confidence issue and when the brother is around it is easier to back off. I agree I would not hunt them together until the problem is definitely identified and resolved. And it certainly will help to get her really excited about birds. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo) and the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo)
Yellow Rose GSPs

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." --Plato
"..It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.." --Samuel Adams |
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jmb3402 Palmyra, Pa
Posts:12


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| 02/21/2010 5:15 PM |
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| I def agree with yous on that I need to train with her by myself. Its def not helping probaly hurting more than anything. |
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jmb3402 Palmyra, Pa
Posts:12


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| 02/21/2010 5:18 PM |
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Shes crazy about birds. Just not in that situation. |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:2503


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| 02/21/2010 6:34 PM |
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Just my opinion, any dog with drive and desire will not back off birds. Now, our opinions about drive and desire may differ. If you want to build confidence then build it in the yard and field on birds. Does he have these issues with other dogs,as well?Aggression and possession can be a deadly combo. |
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Be the type of woman that when you wake up each morning and put your feet on the floor the Devil says - "Oh Crap, She's Up!"
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2229 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2230
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jmb3402 Palmyra, Pa
Posts:12


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jmb3402 Palmyra, Pa
Posts:12


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| 02/21/2010 7:02 PM |
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If she doesnt have the drive and desire than why does she do great with herself and she did great with another gsp? She did a great job pheasant hunting the gamelands this year and her younger brother was along, when we let the chukar out its a different story. She doesnt back off all the time when the brother is around, but a good bit of the time. I m just gonna work with her a lot more by herself. |
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jlp8cornell Ithaca NY
 MH Posts:448


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| 02/22/2010 5:41 AM |
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My best friend has my dog's littermate. Our dogs play together, train together, hike together, etc. For bird work though we will now be separating them. It has been suggested more then once that she may be backing off from birds because he is the dominant one. Try running her with a different dog and see what happens.
She too loves to look for wild birds and he does not intimidate her but...in a training situation- totally different story. Considering our situation- yours sounds very similar. I am interested to know how things work out as my friend tries to work out her bitch's issues. |
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Jen http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2440 |
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pixie bee
 MH Posts:2503


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| 02/22/2010 7:42 AM |
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When a dog is hunting the dog is in prey mode. When a dog backs off point the dog is no longer in prey mode. The dog is in,possibly,defensive mode or some other mode.When drive and desire are strong this would not happen. In the 2 cases mentioned, the dogs are presented a situation where prey is over-ridden by defense - the dogs mentioned are defering to another when they ought to be in pure prey drive. There are several areas to look at - independence,boldness,dominance,level of prey drive,strength of nerve. If the only time the dogs back off point or have an issue in the field is when a particular dog is present, then don't hunt them together. If the dogs mentioned are worth keeping, I would devise several training ideas to see if the dogs can eventually hunt together. I find most times it is human error that screws things up and human intelligence that makes things work. The key ingredient seems to be chukar. Something must have happened if she only backs off with chukar. Why not a pheasant? Maybe she got scratched,poked in the eye,pecked? Please keep us posted about the progress of both sets of dogs. Francine |
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Be the type of woman that when you wake up each morning and put your feet on the floor the Devil says - "Oh Crap, She's Up!"
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2229 http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genedit.php?id=2230
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jlp8cornell Ithaca NY
 MH Posts:448


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| 02/22/2010 8:36 AM |
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Max's sister, Trace, has issues with only penned birds. We start training again next month. Will be interesting to see what happens. On another note, she was spayed in Nov. Before that she was timid in training situations, hesitant to play with her bro, etc. Now, she is completely opposite. Interesting to see if that will have an effect as well. |
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Jen http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2440 |
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jmb3402 Palmyra, Pa
Posts:12


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| 02/22/2010 3:14 PM |
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The dog is def worth keeping. She was hunting with a friends of mine gsp earlier in the year with quail and she did excellent. Like i said she did excellent regualr pheasant hunting as well even with the male along, maybe it is the chukar dont know. I ll take all the advice i can get and keep working with her. I am taking my dog in this wednesday to get fixed. Will see how she acts after that. How long should i keep her out of the field? I m really anxious to get out and continue working with her. Its nice to hear someone has a similar situation. We def. got to keep in touch and i will keep you guys updated. |
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zodiakgsps NW PA
 MH Posts:786


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| 02/22/2010 6:02 PM |
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I have one question. In a training situation, when the male is coming in & the female is on point....do you tend to yell at the male at all or just in general?? I only ask as I have a friend with 2 dogs (non GSP) who tries to train together, a younger and an older one. His situation is MUCH like yours. Older dog is very biddable to him and a tad soft, younger one, not so much!! He has a tendancy to yell at younger dog (doesnt even realize he does this) & it affects the older one to the point he will blink a bird. I finally got him to work dogs seperate. (dog never did this hunting with other dogs as friend didnt control other dogs & when hunting tended to be quieter) Just a thought..... |
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Jason
 JH Posts:23

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| 02/23/2010 9:58 PM |
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| Is your issue only on chucker? Have you ever worked her on chucker solo? She's a young dog and some birds can be intimidating to them. The cackle of a chucker might be related to something she's had a bad experience with?? If anything I'm saying makes sense, try working them on Quail for a bit and see if your issues are still there. If so then you have a dominance/submissive issue to deal with. |
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