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briarpatch User is Offline

N.J.

MH
Posts:168

04/06/2009 8:43 PM
Newby question for the show folk.. I know the withers means shoulder. But when you measure to the withers does that mean 25 inches to the shoulder joint or to the top of the shoulder or back above the shoulder? exactly where do you measure on a dog to get this measurement?

My Pups:

singltrak

Las Cruces, NM

MH
Posts:1149

04/06/2009 9:25 PM
Take a yardstick or ruler..something flat and place it across the high point of the shoulder. You are measuring from this (imaginary) horizontal line to a flat surface on which the dog stands. Usually I will have the dog stand near my "measuring wall" and put a mark where the ruler meets the wall (i.e. "Ziggy at 10 months, etc.). Then measure from the floor to this mark. It is much easier than trying to hold a wiggling dog and wield a ruler at the same time. If you know of anyone who has a breed with a height disqualification, they may also own a wicket. That is used in the show ring (and in some breeds in general), and is a metal bar with two adjustable legs. In breeds that have a height dq in the show ring, the measure is set at the top of the standard and then, with the agreement of the handler and a witness that the wicket is accurately set, placed across the withers. If the feet touch the ground (mat, etc) with no movement then the dog measures "in", if there is any air or space, or if they dangle, then the dog is measured "out" and may not continue to compete on that day. (Once again, that is only in breeds with a height disqualification). Vizslas also are measured prior to running in their National Field Championship. Phyllis and the Singltrak Furtribe www.singltrakshorthairs.net/

Look to the Past, Breed for the Future

lauralee

Plainfield, CT.

MH
Posts:449

04/07/2009 6:24 AM
Posted By singltrak on 04/06/2009 9:25 PM Take a yardstick or ruler..something flat and place it across the high point of the shoulder. You are measuring from this (imaginary) horizontal line to a flat surface on which the dog stand Phyllis and the Singltrak Furtribe www.singltrakshorthairs.net/ I find that's the easiest way to measure.

dnauer

Colorado Springs, CO

MH
Posts:175

04/07/2009 10:35 AM
As a somewhat tongue in cheek suggestion -- I might suggest attending an Agility trial where a VMO is present and have the dog measured there I am an AKC VMO (Volunteer Measuring Official) and we have a very accurate measuring device that we can measure a dog's actual height to a fair degree of repeatable accuracy -- not just whether a dog is over a given height (or under) as is done with a wicket. I'll be measuring at the GSPCA NSS Agility trial this year in Colorado, but it looks like you are in New Jersey. For approximate measures the method Phyllis noted works -- I might add to it by noting that if you get a very small "level" (I carry a plastic level that is about 1/2" in diameter) with a bubble in the liquid -- you can put it on the horizontal stick to ensure it is level from the dog's shoulder to the vertical measuring stick or wall -- you can be off over an inch by just "eyeballing it" with that step alone. The withers is the highest point of the shoulder blades meeting the neck of the dog -- e.g. the point where you'll feel the two shoulder blades come closest together at the base of the neck -- it varies dramatically by breed and dog, sometimes they are quite separated with a huge gap, sometimes quite close and almost touch eash other. They are (usually) easy to find on GSPs -- believe me, in some breeds it is unbelieveable where you'll find that point -- I've seen a few agility Shelties with the shoulder blades well up and into the slope of what you'd think of as the "neck" with almost no shoulder layback. We are also nice in that the coat doesn't get in the way (try measuring a Keeshond sometime with that very dense, heavy coat . . .). Another note, make sure the dog's feet are properly position in a natural stance, and that you are not force holding the dogs head up or down -- that can also change the measurement significantly -- when I measure I generally ask the handler to stand in front of the dog encouraging the dog to have a head in the proper position -- I put a finger around the lead/collar and try to get the the dog to relax without the handler touching the dog -- you'll find that a difference of over an inch can occur in some breeds with some structures between a frightened and stiff dog versus a relaxed and calm dog. I do not think a significant difference would occur in a GSP, although if I'm measuring around the 22" height (the difference between a 20" jump height and a 24" jump height) that will be considered also. Often I'll have the handler take the dog off the measuring table and gait it to relax -- since we measure on a table with that measuring device it sometimes scares a dog not trained to be measured -- here is how one of the older AKC approved agility measuring devices look -- http://www.actionk9.com/measure.html I know you didn't really ask for all of this, but I've seen a lot of dogs come my way where someone will say "the dog's been measured by (a friend, the breeder, at home, etc) and is XXX" tall", and you do the actual measurement as I describe above and there is a difference of 2 or more inches compared to what the person did at home. What is interesting is the AKC measurement is very repeatable -- it is rare to see more than a 1/4" difference between VMO measurements, and usually if there is a bigger variance it is with a dog that is frightened and not still -- and the process for measuring dogs 22" or below requires two measurements by two different VMOs, and if we do disagree at a key point (say the 18" cut off between a 16" jumping dog and a 20" jumping dog -- one VMO measured 18" exactly, the other 18 1/4" -- then a third "deciding" measurement is made) -- but rarely do I see a first measurement that is off from the second one. Dave

Dave in Colorado Voyager GSPs "If there are no dogs in heaven, when I die, I want to go where they went" -- Will Rogers