Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
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Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 4:31 PM |
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Hi Moose1,
So for registering an Appaloosa you must prove by DNA it is an Appaloosa? I am not advocating changes but I like this idea relative to GSPs. |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
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Posts:1789
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| 01/28/2008 4:50 PM |
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Yes. New babies (foals) have to have their parents DNA'd before that foal can be registered. You also have to have your horse DNA'd before you can breed for the above reason. They implimented this a few years back and have steadily worked toward all horse having the DNA done. I believe now every Appaloosa has to have DNA done before it can be registered. And they do have hardship registry as well but the horse (male or female) has to be fixed before it will be registered.
I wish dog breeds would take DNA more seriously and start implimenting requirements for the dog to be registered and for future litters to be allowed to be registered. I know AKC is sort of working toward this by saying sires who have X number of litters have to have DNA done and such but I think the DNA gives the dog and breeder more credibility and then the DNA proves that the dog is part of the lines that the breeder says it is. That is what is nice about the DNA with the Appaloosa at least they parent verify the foal when the DNA is done before handing out the registration papers so that no one can argue who the foal is out of and what the bloodlines are. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 4:53 PM |
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Hi Megan,
Great pictures and thank you. Does not the first picture shoe a better view of the right elbow extention forward? In the second picture the right leg is not fully extended. (with my screen and the size of the picture I could be wrong) If we can I would like to bring your contribution back into what the standard states to cover this area. I agree with you that the show ring does not necessarily show this motion. I would say though I have seen dogs in the ring whose range of motion is as great even with the slow gate. |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 5:18 PM |
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Hi Matt,
If we could tie your questions to what the standard says it would be good. Not alll of the things you point out as affecting the performance of the dog are germaine to the standard. They do though affect whether you are training a sprinter or a marathon dog. If we continue by identifying those things that are common between sprinter and marathon and then tie those things to sections of the standard addressing them then I think we move this subject forward. |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 5:40 PM |
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Hi Fransine and Phyllis,
Please locate those discussions on light eyes. A lot of people would like to find out the reasoning behind the standard statement of "Light yellow eyes are not desirable and are a fault." |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 5:54 PM |
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Hi Jodi,
Eye color is difficult. Some dogs have dark eyes almost from the get go and others like mine darken with age but withing a relatively short time 2 years. I would not say even in the beginning that they were light yellow. Where have you found what the definition of "wall eyed" and "china eye" are? What do you mean by "light eye" issue. |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 5:57 PM |
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Hi Moose1,
As I said before I like your idea. Maybe, someday GSPCA will step forward to require the same kind of thing. However, this being a not perfect world it is back to the standard as it stands. Hopefully we will be able to get further understanding. |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 6:01 PM |
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I had previously asked about the use of the words "brown" and "liver" in the standard. There is a qualification of the word brown when used to describe the color of the eye. That qualifier is "deep". With respect of the use "brown" when explaining the color of the nose it is unqualified. The use of "liver" in explaining the color of the coat is also unqualified. First let’s look at the word “brown”. If you look in Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary 8th edition "brown" as an adjective is defined as “: of the color brown”. If you look in Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary 8th edition "brown" as a noun is defined as (1st meaning "any of a group of colors between red and yellow in hue. of medium to low lightness, and of moderate to low saturation"). So for starters, we know that brown is someplace between “red” and “orange”. If we go back to the dictionary we find that “red” when used as a noun is defined as “1: a color whose hue resembles that of blood or of the ruby or is that of the long-wave extreme of the visible spectrum”. If we further go back to the dictionary we find that “red” when used as an adjective is defined as “(3) c: in the color range between a moderate orange and russet or bay”. “Russet” ends up being defined as “2: a variable color averaging a strong brown”. “Bay” is defined as “2: a reddish brown”. And finally “reddish” is defined as “: tinged with red”. “Orange” when used as a noun is defined as “3: any group of colors that lie midway between red and yellow in hue and are of medium lightness and moderate to high saturation”. Orange when used as an adjective is defined as “2: of the color orange”. So the color of the dog’s nose can be any place in the range from the midpoint between red and yellow in hue to moving toward red and ending at strong brown or reddish brown. Not exactly precise but it tries to give bounds.
Second let’s look at the word “liver”. If you look in Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary 8th edition "liver" is defined as (4th meaning "a grayish reddish brown -- called also liver brown, liver maroon). So for the coat the founding fathers seemed to find it necessary or desirable to restrict the set of things “brown” further. “Grayish” is defined as “2 of a color: low in saturation” “Reddish” is defined as “: tinged with red”. So the term “strong brown” seems to be the target of refinement with an emphasis on favoring the red side of the defined boundaries.
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Jodi
Tampa, Florida
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Posts:296
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| 01/28/2008 6:02 PM |
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I guess I don't consider Jackson's eyes " deep brown" they seem to be in between. He is only 8 months and I do notice them darkening a little each month....I have no real idea what china eye or wall eye really looks like. I am thinking he does not have that...but I was curious. Thanks for looking into it and your reply...
here is my example....his eyes look a little lighter than others who have deep brown eyes. Granted the lighting plays a role and they look darker indoors, but how light is too light I guess is the question. 
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
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Posts:1149
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| 01/28/2008 6:17 PM |
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Jodi, He's a puppy. You'll easily be able to notice a dark ring around the iris, and as long as that is there, they should continue to darken. Its fairly common in puppies to see a lighter eye. Most start out somewhere from a deep blue to a deep green and then gradually change. In my experience, the pups with the deep green eyes as babies will have a darker eye than those with the deep blue. Not a problem, girl. Relax. 
Ken, are you not aware of the DNA requirement for GSPCA, that all entering national events must be DNA'd prior to entry? For AKC, all breeders using Multiple Sires for litters must DNA all puppies for proof of parentage prior to registration. Frequently Used sires must have DNA on record at the time of litter registration. Perhaps we are keeping up with the Joneses after all....
Gotta go to handling class and run those DNA'd GSPs around.
Phyllis |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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Jodi
Tampa, Florida
MH
Posts:296
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| 01/28/2008 6:20 PM |
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Thanks...I was more curious than anything... He had bluish eyes when he was really tiny and yes I do see the ring you mention and it is getting darker. I just had no idea what those two terms meant so I figured I would clarify in case anyone else was confused.  It is interesting to notice the different shades of liver as well! Thanks for all your information!!! |
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Marie
Wisconsin
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Posts:2721
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| 01/28/2008 6:42 PM |
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Jodi, here is a pic of Rocky's right eye up close so we can compare color. He has no vision problems and can even catch a tennis ball in a pitch dark basement |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 6:57 PM |
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Hi Phyllis and Marie,
Thanks for jumping in and reassuring Jodie not to worry.
Yes I am aware of the DNA requirements at this point. Just commenting on the fact it is not yet a requirement for registering. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 01/28/2008 7:10 PM |
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The Germans felt the darker color eye gave the breed an expressive,beauiful head.The term bird of prey is used to describe the lighter,undesired color.
Most breeders around the world will agree that the darker the pigment of the coat the more desirable the specimen.Darker coat also will indicate darker eyes.
The ability of the dog to raise their elbows like the picture Meg showed, is mostly dictated by the rib cage. This is desired in the DK because it is necessary for trailing.
Going into exact details of the standard is pointless, IMO.As long as dogs are competing in a show, it will always be the judges preference and interpretation of the standard.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 7:43 PM |
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Hi Pixie Bee,
Do you have any translations of German documents you could share with us? I wish you would join in the discussion of the standard to help us understand what it is. I believe that the standard is a statement of what a GSP is. From here one goes forth to the show ring or field trials or any other game which GSP owners choose to play in. The games played can be NAVHDA, Amarican Field, NGSPA, AKC, etc.
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
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Posts:1789
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| 01/28/2008 8:32 PM |
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| Most of the population of dog owners don't show their dogs so it would still be nice for those who don't show to be able to understand what the standard means and then how it applies to the dog becoming a versatile dog. It never hurts to keep learning so any deeper explenation and examples of the standard through pictures etc. would be awesome! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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| 01/28/2008 8:46 PM |
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Ken, the most important quality of GSP breed for me is personality and GSP creativity to engage the isolated human into social interaction. And yes GSP can win titles win awards and build self canine confidence in this world , the same as if in the show rink , field trails ect. Unless you have not guessed it already is GSP in the world of Pet Therapy. I can say the my GSP Rocky has been the last warm dog a person has petted or tossed a ball to while being in a retirement home. Rocky has a fantastic in your lap ,lick your face, toss me the ball personality. The felcro of the GSP discription. Rocky is schedule to be a full time Boys and Girls Club dog beginning as soon as our weather in Wisconsin gets in the 40's and 50's engaging the kids in ball toss sessions. Rocky is specialized trained to rotate and take turns dropping his ball in front of each child and welcoming a child who just came in the field or hanging in the back to become engaged in the activity. So my point is to you and other Breeder and Show dog people, the GSP can play those rules but can do so much more in our world to make a difference. So Rocky as he drops his pheasant dummy in a nursng home male resident lapwho used to bird hunt, can stand back give that famous GSP stare and say" throw me that bird for me to retrieve Rocky TDIAOV |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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Marie
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:2721
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| 01/28/2008 8:46 PM |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
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Posts:989
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| 01/28/2008 10:32 PM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 01/28/2008 3:29 PM
...high withers are preferred by the Germans.A slight roach is not bad either.From what I have noticed, dogs with a slight roach are pretty fast...
What you're noting about a curve or 'spring' to the back has been noted by I think either Ed Streeper (Open Sprit racer/breeder) or Joe Runyan(the only guy to ever win Iditarod, Yukon Quest, and the Alpirod), can't remember who.... heck, they'd probably both expound on it if you asked.
To get all heretical on this, I'll post some pictures of what have been widely considered by myself and others 'well built dogs'. Only these are Alaskan Huskies. Why? Because I want to take away the distraction of coat or color or ear set for a moment.... What you'll notice is that in dogs built to run hard all day, there is convergent bio-mechanics. The best running dogs of any gene pool in harness today have all been medium built and around 45-50 pounds give or take. GSPs have complimented this performance hybrid 'breed' very nicely in recent years, something that seems no accident when you see the significant overlap of athletic and mental demands.
"Streeper dog", out of their famous sire Gunnar, mostly open sprint lines with greyhound mixed in through multiple generations:
Swingly bred- a little heavier as is common in more distance oriented dogs. I really like his stifle/rear end. This line tends to have a lot of coon hound back there in the woodpile, although this dog could very well be a diluted GSP hybrid:
I think Andrew was out of some old Wright-Chapaine lines. BIG dog, and can definately see the saluki in there....
You'll notice that none of these dogs are particularly extreme. In fact, if you're not used to looking at performance dogs, you probably wouldn't think much of them. But these are the type to go all day fast and do it again tomorrow. If you look again carefully, you'll see the similarities in various other dogs with more familiar faces attached.
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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Ace1cappuccino
Carp Lake, Michigan
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Posts:1618
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| 01/29/2008 7:59 AM |
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I like the GSP pic the best. Beautiful dog. I think that there is so much left open for "personal" interpretation that it is going to be basically the same style, shape, build, etc. I also believe that each judge will choose differently as to what he/she likes or feels the dog should look like. I have2 males that are 55# and have a smaller chest width(side to side than my 3 females. I can fully put my hand in between the legs without a problem. All have dark eyes. They are awesome hunters. I do not run in the show ring. I am planning on getting into some HT or FT this year. The versatility is there as they will hunt rabbits or birds. They love water and will retrieve anything from any where. I like this discussion though as everyone can put their thoughts in and maybe we can get a better understanding of the Standard.
The DNA thing would be nice but it would have to start somewhere. You can't go 3 - 4 generations back and try to get a DNA sample if the dogs are not around. How would they decide where it starts? It would prove who the parents were but you couldn't pick up a dog from a rescue or elsewhere and go have it tested and expect to find out anything about him. No way to tell if there was weim blood, or lab, etc..
Again, there is alot of variance in the standard here, I see it in my own dogs. Especially in size/ weight. My thoughts are though that in a show. What if there was a judge who just loved the solid liver gsp. There was a white & liver also. Who do you suspect would be the winner even if they were both correct? The same dogs in another show could meet a judge who likes liver/roan or white/liver patched& ticked. See my point. I am striving to understand this better as I only want to have correct dogs to breed with. Trey and Zodiack off here have been very helpful to me with their ideas of the dogs.
My only argument was that just because a dog is not titled does not make it a bad dog. I do recognize the fact of all the time that is put into a dog to become a field champ. I wish I had the time and money to do them myself. Hopefully in the near future. I have no doubt in my dogs ability.
We just need to see that opinions and ideas is what they are, take them all with a grain of salt so to speak. Please keep up this discussion as I am learning alot more and I appreciate. Everyone has their idea and with all of us talking about it then we might just figure this out.
Bill |
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Cornell's GSP'S- Mocha cappuccino, Lili Belle Lotte, Sir Leopold Vom Hunter 1, Lil Miss Lotte Doddi, Ace Hunter Twisted Mister(GSP'S)  
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