Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7836
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/05/2008 4:49 AM |
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I have looked into those international shows. There aren't many near us though. So I decided I would wait on that until she is over 18 month and then make a weekend trip to one of the shows.
I am having a hard time not using bait to work with her. But that is a whole nother topic not to get off on on this one. If I don't use bait she is a brick and if I do she relaxes just fine. So we will see! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
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Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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bruns333
Central Ohio
MH
Posts:383
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| 12/05/2008 5:14 AM |
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| Beth you could always use bait at first to train and then gradually transition aways from it. I find with a pup it just helps get their attention a little longer. |
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Where temperament means performance
http://silverbulletshorthairs.com/
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=721 R.I.P Trego 6-1-03 to 10-13-10
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=941
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3626 |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 12/05/2008 5:33 AM |
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I referenced the dog with the Thank You page b/c to me this is a dog with a show career and when I mentioned showing as a career Matt questioned what I meant. Campaigning a dog is the same as having a show career, isn't it?
I think if you were looking for type you would most likely find it in the show ring.
I stand by my premise that there is a hugh split between show dogs and working dogs and if I were looking a for dog that I could take to top hunting titles I would not likely look in the AKC show ring.
Sometimes the look of a breed changes over the years. I showed someone a dog in Haiko's pedigree and the comment made was along the lines of - she has a more traditional look of her time.
If there is only one type for a breed and this type is set and not changeable then how can this comment stand ? It is true, she does not look like show dogs of today but she does look like a typical DK you will find today.
My venue is the German system. A dog either fits the standard or does not. You can breed or not depending on this evaluation. You are allowed to enter as many evaluations as you like but each one will be written on your dogs pedigree.
I am not a competetive person. I like to go up against a standard.
From what I understand, in a FT a judge is allowed to choose the dog he favors over a dog
that performed better. This must be hard for the handler of the better dog to accept.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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bruns333
Central Ohio
MH
Posts:383
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| 12/05/2008 7:45 AM |
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I thought the german system gave ratings to dogs. Some get a better conformation ratings than others, so it is not it fits the standard or not. If that were the case it would be pass or fail.
Does the german system allow gsp's in it? Have any DK's run in american FT's? Can DK's compete in AKC shows as long as they are not black? (which by the way I think the black ones should be allowed)
I tend to think that a system that allows the most varieties(gsp, dk, show stock, ft stock, versatile stock) to compete is one that will produce the best shorthairs in the long run.
I hope the folks that wrote the standard had a vision of making the breed better. If it is as black and white as you seem to think than the best dogs are already out there and we should just clone them.
I wouldn't buy a hunting dog from a "show breeder" either, but may want to breed to one if I needed to correct a fault. Maybe a hunting line is too small and wnts to add some size, or a show line consistenly throws a darker eye, or the show folks do a better job of health testing their dogs. A lot of reasons to keep the show folks around. I like that the NAVHDA system ahs a small portion that puts on record things like entropic eyes and bad bites, I wish they would take in a little further.
Competition brings the best dogs forward. It is not perfect, but a standard is also veiwed by a person and thus subjective. I would like to see two VC's be judged not only on the standard(rules), but see who gets to the birds first and finds the duck first. |
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Where temperament means performance
http://silverbulletshorthairs.com/
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=721 R.I.P Trego 6-1-03 to 10-13-10
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=941
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3626 |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 12/05/2008 7:45 AM |
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I stand by my premise that there is a hugh split between show dogs and working dogs and if I were looking a for dog that I could take to top hunting titles I would not likely look in the AKC show ring.
Most definitely agree. And I don't think many hunters are getting their hunting dogs from show kennels. That said, folks like me that are looking for a companion/family dog first and foremost will do fine with a show dog.
Sometimes the look of a breed changes over the years.
Oh yes...and that can be subtle or less subtle. The English Bulldog used to look similar to today's American Bulldog, before it had its muzzle and health bred away. So the American Bulldog really is an old breed as well as a new breed (revived in the early 1970s), and still are all over the place in regards to looks and temperament.
The GSP I find is pretty consistent in temperament certainly and looks except as mentioned in the posts above. So although it SHOULD not, WILL the breed eventually very noticably separate into show and hunting stock?
I think in Germany, most DKs are still placed into hunting homes (Jaeger/forester), and they are vehemently considered a hunting dog that has no place in a pet home. Of course, I have known a few pet DKs; I don't have any statistics, but from what I understand from German DK forums, breeder directories and DK Clubs, there is much more emphasis on the work aspect of the breed.
IMO it's all about the desire to keep [any] working breed pure...the fear that the gene pool will be diluted by purely show dogs that along the way lose their working ability as well as the original looks...the wish to only place the dogs in working homes, and do away with pet homes, (except to place those pups that don't make the cut as hunters, and there will be some in every litter...or else those would have to be culled?), all the while praying that their breed does not become too popular because we all know...that can really ruin the breed.
Then along comes an awesome breed like the GSP...you can't blame people for liking them...falling in love with them...wanting one...then wanting two...or three...everyone here fell into that trap for one reason or another...some to hunt (as it should be)...some for good company (like myself)...some to show...some to breed (hopefully for the betterment of the breed)...and this inadvertently will change the direction the breed was going, at a faster pace the more non-hunting people jump on the GSP wagon (I am one of them I admit). We can talk about it all we want but it can't be stopped. Now ranked No. 18 (No. 24 ten years earlier) on the AKC popular breed list, the GSP's high energy level and exercise requirements may be the thing that prevents these dogs to make it to the top of that list 
I think I am going off course here...not sure if I even make sense.
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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bruns333
Central Ohio
MH
Posts:383
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| 12/05/2008 7:49 AM |
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| By the way Francine, did you see under the performance thread the guy that has FT bred dogs getting VC and UT I. Maybe the FT dogs are more versatile than we think. |
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Where temperament means performance
http://silverbulletshorthairs.com/
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=721 R.I.P Trego 6-1-03 to 10-13-10
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=941
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3626 |
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bruns333
Central Ohio
MH
Posts:383
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| 12/05/2008 7:59 AM |
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Check out this article off the Westwind kennels sight. It has some insight into the shorthair history. Gary knows a ton about these dogs.
http://westwindgsps.com/german_shorthairs_breed_history.htm |
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Where temperament means performance
http://silverbulletshorthairs.com/
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=721 R.I.P Trego 6-1-03 to 10-13-10
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=941
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3626 |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/05/2008 9:56 AM |
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Matt-
I had her stacking for no treats for a bit and then she became really not wanting to stack so went back to baiting. I will continue to do so for now. For goodness sake she never had any formal training before coming to me and she is almost 5 months old. UGH. She is very smart though. I am going to bring her to a UKC show next month to try out one of the pup classes and let her have fun! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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bruns333
Central Ohio
MH
Posts:383
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| 12/05/2008 10:55 AM |
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| Beth 5 months is very young and I wouldn't worry, just keep at it. Talk nice to her and stack her up. Pet, stroke tell her good she is the whole time. I haven't used bait, but just working on it before letting her eat with her food raised off the floor to keep her head from looking down. I didn't show Trego until she was 15 months. You have plenty off time. I think Stella is learning alot faster in the last month or so(7 mo now). Give her time and patience. |
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Where temperament means performance
http://silverbulletshorthairs.com/
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=721 R.I.P Trego 6-1-03 to 10-13-10
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=941
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3626 |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7836
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/05/2008 11:40 AM |
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Thanks for the boost in confidence guys! I appreciate it. She is just soo smart. She is doing awesome with stacking for so young. Wish I had had her since she was 8 weeks old for how smart she is!
I am hoping to get out on some birds with her on the check cord next week. I LOVE the bird work the most so that will be good times! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 12/05/2008 12:45 PM |
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The German system grades the dog on the standard. Some dogs fail - unfit for breeding and no further testin gis done, the dogs that are fit for breeding get put into catagories based on how close they come to the standard. V,SG,G. It is never a competition tho. There are dogs who get a V rating here and in Germany are given an SG.
The German system is set up to determine breeding stock. Having non DKs enter would be to no benefit to the DK world. DK that are AKC registered can enter any AKC event,coloring permitting.
As far as the DK world is concerned they are where they want to be,so to speak.
The FT GSP you see today was originally the DK. Big difference, wouldn't you say? For better or for worse FT'ing has changed the type for the breed. Retrieving suffered for a while and still does in some lines, as does water love. But, when I say water love it goes beyond jumping in and swimming for the sheer heck of it. It is the search that has suffered. Attend a fall breed test and you will see what a search should look like.
The German testing system has breed books. If there is something you want to know about a dog just look it up in the books or contact a breed warden.There is no better record of a breed then the German Breed Books.And the temperament of a dog is judged the entire time the test in on, not just when it's the dog's turn at bat, along with a Weson test specifically for this.
Matt, your last pararaph really hit me.
What's the difference which dogs finds the birds the fastest? Does that really make a dog better? It is how the dog worked and cooperated that tells me what I want to know about a dog.And a duck search has absolutely nothing to do with who finds the duck the fastest. It is about the search. The search is what needs to be graded. This tells so much about a dog. If any of my dogs had a poor search I would adopt them out. They would not be breeding stock for me.
Tessa GA, some once told me that a GSP calms down 2 years ofter it is dead. Well, if that's not enough to scare people away I don't know what is.
I personally have not experienced this hyper activity in our AKC dogs or our DKs.
I read that thread about the VC GSP. But that was a walking trial not horseback. Are there many horseback FT guys who do versatile events?
Anyway, it is a nice accomplishment.
As far as the versatility of FT dogs I can't say. They are lighter boned,smaller dogs who are primarliy white. As a versatile this could hinder a dog. Not to mentionthat VDogs track. Do FT guys really want their dogs to be putting
their heads down?
No field venues are the same and each venue tells a different story of the dogs entered.
When it comes to rating a dog I personally like the 12 point system.
I want to say I started out with GSPs. My husband had DKs in europe. I did not know what he was talking about when he would talk about the dogs. We went over to the DK when our last girl was going out. When I researched the breed I never expected to find what I did. I admire the breed for what it embodies and for what it can do. Watch a DK hunt, especially a good one, and you will probably want to know where to buy one. I can sit all day and watch Haiko do water searches and empty field searches, and I do. It is what calms the world down for me.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/05/2008 1:53 PM |
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Pixie-
I have a DK question for you. Say I was to import a DK from germany. (not likly but just for example). Would this dog be welcomed to be registered in the AKC? Or are their hoops to jump through etc.
I just ask cause I wonder if you don't see as much german blood here now because there isn't the competitions in the USA for them. To me as a small up and hopefully coming breeder it would cost me an arm and a leg to be able to show a DK in germany and run them in the german tests if I had to go over there.
I also want more interpretation of this quote:
"What's the difference which dogs finds the birds the fastest? Does that really make a dog better? It is how the dog worked and cooperated that tells me what I want to know about a dog.And a duck search has absolutely nothing to do with who finds the duck the fastest. It is about the search. The search is what needs to be graded. This tells so much about a dog. If any of my dogs had a poor search I would adopt them out. They would not be breeding stock for me."
To me it does matter who find the bird first in a duck search. If the dog works beautifully but the duck is crippled the duck could stay just out of the dogs reach for a very long time and could possibly not even mean we would bag that duck. The dog who understands where the dog went down and how to get to that duck the fastest would in my book be better as it would leave less cripples and bag more ducks for me. Same with crippled pheasant. But maybe the good work of the dog would make it so that dog will be the first one to the bird? Maybe that goes hand in hand.
I really like DK's from what I have seen of them. But I don't see the financial practicality of it here in the US if it takes a lot to register them and get them "proven" as breeding stock. So for me I will stick with the breeders who run the upper level NAVHDA tests but also CH their dogs in the show ring with UKC or AKC.
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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bruns333
Central Ohio
MH
Posts:383
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| 12/05/2008 2:18 PM |
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The difference in who finds the bird or duck first is the the whole reason shorthairs exist. Hunting!!! Go to a 100 acre field to hunt and I want to have the dog that finds birds and does it in a quick fashion. I know there is an art to this, but these dogs were created to put game on the table. The same applies to the duck search. Take a shorthair duck hunting and I will bet the hunter the shot the duck wants it brought back to him as fast as possible to get ready for the next ducks that come in range. A wounded duck into some tall cattalils same thing. So speed and being thorough are the reason to have them.
I have not been talking about ALL-Age FT dogs. Most of the FC's I know and would consider breeding to or owning are walking trial dogs. I don't own a horse so having one that runs that big would be of no use to me.
Did you read Gary Hutchinson's article about the history of the breed? |
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Where temperament means performance
http://silverbulletshorthairs.com/
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=721 R.I.P Trego 6-1-03 to 10-13-10
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=941
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3626 |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 12/05/2008 2:32 PM |
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I will be around for another 2 hours then we are headed up for upstate. I would like to answer this question so it is not left over the weekend.
Any DK can be AKC registered with no problem.
You can test the dog thru the VCDKK or the NADKC here in America. The tests are a requirement based on age.A young derby dog is only tested in spring and would have to be tested by 18 months old and the upcoming fall would have to be tested, I think by 22 months old, for a solms test. It is the testing requirements that truely separate the DK from the GSP. A owner would only need to go to Germany for the highly prized test of the KS title. Many tests fly in German judges for the conformation ratings and field work.
In the Indiana,Chicago,Michigan area you are practically surrounded by great DKs.
Let me clarify what a duck search is about in testing. You are talking about during a hunt and that is a different catagory in the test.
In the German system,similiar to NAVHDA, during a fall breed test,either solms or AZP(older dog breed test), with the the dog out of sight a duck is tossed into the water and allowed to go out of sight. The handler and dog are brought up and the handler is given the general direction to send the dog on a SINGLE command. No shot is fired. The dog is to pick up the scent left by the duck and hopefully find the duck. Some do wish their dog does not find the duck, but for me it's a great thing. I tell every judge - it's not if he finds it, it's when.
It's the best part of any versatile test.
The dog needs to work independently and methodically out of range of the handler.
Not be distracted by other game or people. If the duck is found and the dog is just out of reach the duck will be shot for the retrieve, if safe to do so for the dog.
When a dog does a good search you can see the wheels turning in their head.
Not all searches are equal, altho they may have the same scoring. It is best to SEE what a dog does rather then read the score.
You do not need to import a dog. There are many DK breeders here in the states with excellent dogs. Almost all will require you test the dog in the system and some will even request you do not breed outside the system.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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bruns333
Central Ohio
MH
Posts:383
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| 12/05/2008 2:39 PM |
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| Francine have a nice weekend! |
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Where temperament means performance
http://silverbulletshorthairs.com/
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=721 R.I.P Trego 6-1-03 to 10-13-10
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=941
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3626 |
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TessaGA
Georgia
MH
Posts:2387
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| 12/05/2008 2:42 PM |
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Tessa GA, some once told me that a GSP calms down 2 years ofter it is dead. Well, if that's not enough to scare people away I don't know what is.
I personally have not experienced this hyper activity in our AKC dogs or our DKs
I was not referring to hyper activity, I was referring to the GSPs need for exercise and their energy that requires proper "channelling". It just seems to me that people on the street seem to actually KNOW that. The first words out of EVERYone's mouth always are: "they like to run" "they need a lot of exercise". Because they do. I don't think it's as easy to get away with being the average lazy bum dog owner if you own one of these...
PS: Sorry if I offended any lazy bum dog owners...although I doubt we have any here. My pet peeve - I know way too many people that get dogs and NEVER walk them or do anything with them. Kills me. Thankfully, most of those realize that they better stay away from the GSP (I say most not all).
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To live without dogs would mean accepting a form of blindness. [Thomas McGuane]
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dnauer
Colorado Springs, CO
MH
Posts:175
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| 12/05/2008 2:43 PM |
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For the quesiton on whether a foreign registry is recognized for registration with the AKC, the AKC does list the foreign registries that they recognize on their web site:
http://www.akc.org/rules/special_registry_services.cfm
Note that under "Germany" for "German Shortahired Pointers only" the following registry is recognized:
Deutsch-Kurzhaar-Verband e.V.
Dave |
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Dave in Colorado
Voyager GSPs
"If there are no dogs in heaven, when I die, I want to go where they went" -- Will Rogers |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 12/05/2008 3:09 PM |
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| Thanks Dave for that link. I don't look into AKC that heavily as I don't really compete there that much. With all the UKC events we have and the time we are traveling with dock jumping it is enough for me! But it is good to know in the future. I wish it were not winter right now as I really want to see my girls water ambition. I think she will love the water! |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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