Yes - to both questions often times. I'm not making blanket statements, though. You can certainly find show breeders that work to ensure hunting ability is maintained in their lines, but I have also seen show dogs that couldn't find a bird if you tied it to them with a piece of twine. The other thing I commonly see in some show lines is a dog that is far too big and far too heavy of bone to have any ability to move quickly for extended periods of time without getting exhausted.

I don't know about all GSP breeders that show, but the ones I know (including the one where I bought Halo and Ringo) breed their dogs for hunting first and foremost which also includes hunt tests and field trials.  They put CH titles on their dogs because they breed them and it is like an extra seal of approval.  They also do other sports like agility and obedience and title their dogs in those events as well. I don't hunt my dogs right now, but am working to change that.  Even so on just shear endurance, I would match Halo up with any dog out there. Based on the fact that Ringo is still a puppy, I am hesitant to make the same claim, but I think he will have the same endurance as Halo when he is grown.  Belle also has the endurance and drive, but her build isn't too my liking as her muscles are a little short and thus prone to more injury (Belle did not come from a thoughtful/good breeder).

As far as the judges in the show ring, pixie you are right about many of them, however there are a few good ones that know and love the breed like we all do.  When you get one of those judges it is special.  The ones I have come across take extra time with the dogs and handlers (especially those of us that are not professionals), they make comments on what they see good and weak in the dog they are looking at, they work you more in the ring to really see the movement, and they spend allot of time when going over the dog. When you have a good judge that knows the breed it becomes very obvious based on the dogs they pull.  When you have the other kind of judge you can also tell (sometimes it is a political pick, and sometimes it is a pick out of ignorance).  For that reason when I start showing a dog I ask my breeder and GSP knowledgeable show friends about the judges and I also keep a cheat sheet on the judges.  There are judges that I would show under any time and there are judges I would never show under again.  All that said, I would say for the most part the judges do a pretty good job and if you have a good GSP you can finish them even without a professional handler.   And by the way, as a show handler you are not doing a good job if your dog is nervous at the show and I will guarantee that a nervous dog would not win.  Believe it or not the good dogs like to show and get really excited when they win (not kidding).

I guess my point is that it is not fair to make a blanket statement about show dogs vs hunting dogs as one size doesn't fit all here.  As someone who is fairly new to the breed (I have had GSPs for 6 years), but have had dogs all my life (other breeds), the GSP world has done a darn good job of keeping the breed close to its hunting roots and still competing in shows.  Unlike other breeds, for instance labs, where their is a stark difference between a show lab and and hunting lab.

This is an interesting discussion and I hope I haven't offended, but I had to speak up and defend the show side as I think it too is important to the breed.  It is a special breeder (and there are more in the GSP world than you think) that strives for a dog that excels in both the hunting arena and the show arena. Remember that the show ring is not supposed to be a beauty contest, but a judgement about form and function and whether the dog would make good breeding stock. It also is only one component in answering the question about breeding stock.  I would never buy a dog from a breeder that only shows their dogs in conformation.

Okay, I thought that dogs bred for the show ring need to come as perfectly close to the breed standard as possible. Of course, there is some variation within the standard, and actually winning shows depends on interpretation of the breed standard, the "blue print" a given judge has in his/her head and compares a dog to, politics, handling, etc. But...don't show breeders strive to produce dogs that perfectly embody the breed standard? If so, how could that be bad? Didn't years of breeding for the desired function bring about the form as now described in the standard? Meaning, dogs that fit the standard should be able to move and work efficiently in the field, because that structure has proven to be most efficient for the work of the GSP?

IMO, the big difference is in neglecting hunting instincts (desire, drive, pointing, nose, etc) and temperament while breeding for conformation. Just breeding for conformation/show ring should still produce a dog that's physically capable of work, but may have less desire to hunt, unless the breeder pays attention to conformation as well as hunting ability and temperament by pursuing both the showring AND hunt the dog.

That's why if I was looking for a dog to seriously hunt with, I would go with a breeder/line that breeds for hunting first and foremost. I went to a kennel that was old school bred for hunting - but even he had a few show dogs in the mix.  I myself was looking for a companion dog, athletic, drivey, active, for agility etc and some field trialing, so a show GSP with health clearances from what I deem a responsible breeder suited my needs. Which is not to say that my dog won't hunt. Will put her through the motions starting with the NA next spring).

What you all are saying is la-la land. Sorry to be blunt.
You will most likely find type at a dog show but that does not mean conformation is what it should be to go all day in the field. A day hunting is not the same as chasing tennis balls. It is much,much more strenuous.A dog may have type but may not be in balance and vice-versa. So, which dog do you breed to ? The dog with type or the dog with balance?
I'd pick type if the faults are not overwhelming or neither.
There can only be 1 type in a breed. Type is not about personal preference. When 2 dogs enter a show ring and 1 dog is 26-27" tall but is perfect type for the breed and the other is not in type for the breed but in the standard, which dog do you pick?
I would have to pick the larger dog.Type must be preserved or the breed is lost.
There are different levels of expectations when it comes to hunting. Most any dog can get a JH or a SH. It is when you try to go for the higher titles that you start to notice where a dog lacks.
If a dog is over angulated it could interfer with the movement and endurance of a hunting dog that does not have the long body which is needed to help compensate for the unmatched drive from the rear.
Then there is the discussion of temperament.

Here is a site created by Margaret Cotton, a friend of mine.The link is about temperment,please browse the site:

http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/articles/prob46.htm

This is a good topic but one that could people in trouble.

Doesn't the standard call, among other things of course, for "balance"?

" A dog well balanced in all points is preferable to one with outstanding good qualities and defects"

And proper angulation?

" Hock joints are well angulated and strong with straight bone structure from hock to pad. Angulation of both stifle and hock joint is such as to achieve the optimal balance of drive and traction."

Just wondering why selecting breeding stock based on the standard is not always preferrable? Doesn't the standard outline a conformation that will optimize a dog's performance, as far as movement goes at least? Or maybe I just got lost here...not meaning to criticize, just need some clarifcation on this.

I don't discount all you wrote Pixie, but I agree with the other post too.  There are some days Halo shows well and I know we have a chance and other days I wonder why we even bothered.  We just sometimes have bad days. 

The good judges, and there are more than you think, will not select a crappy dog just to give a ribbon.  They have the option of withholding the ribbon or disqualifying the dog.  Most of the time they will only withhold the ribbon as a disqualification has deeper and more serious issues.  So, you don't get a winner in that case from the classes (those dogs trying to get their CH title).  I have seen this happen in one of the puppy classes (and the judge withheld the ribbon and disqualified the bitch).  The owner was a well known breeder and was really PO'd.  Didn't matter to the judge.  Halo was in that show in the Open class and won the open class, went on to win Winners Bitch, Best of Winners and Best of Breed over 3 Specials (Specials are dogs that already have their title and are being campaigned for all the big shows).  Boy were there some mad handlers that day and owners too. Now I am not claiming Halo is perfect or the right type or anything.  I personally like her looks, drive, etc., but I used this an an example of a judge who I believe was really looking for a dog that met the standard and that he felt deserved the win.   I found out later that he was a good judge and knew shorthairs.  He was older and had been around awhile and was obviously not concerned with politics. I have come across at least 4 other judges like this one in the last year.

In shorthairs in Texas it takes time for someone like me to put a CH on a dog.  I like to stay within a reasonable driving distance, so there are only about 10 shows a year that I might be able to enter.  Most are worth only 1 point.  Majors are hard to come by and occur consistently in 3 shows a year in the area and there is always tough competition at the majors.  I waited to show Halo until she was 2 YO as I didnt' think she was ready, developed, etc until then, so I have seriously been showing her for one year.  This is the first dog I have shown in conformation and I have trained her myself.  I am very proud to say she is one major short of finishing and she and I have done it together as a team.  I have had at least two judges tell me they are really gratified to see a shorthair with the proper coat, eye color, etc.

Contrary to what many may think there is an art and rhythm to showing a dog to the best they can be.  It takes work and commitment and a thick skin. Most of the time Halo and I accomplish that, but some days, well we just keep trying.  In any case, we  have fun and that in the end is why we do it.