I've been silent a couple of weeks......trying to process and make sense of what happened the other day.

First mistake.  Out of desparation, I was ill and didn't want to take the dogs for a long ride with my bike, so I piled them in the back of the car and we headed for the dog park......my least favorite place to be.   

Day one:  Uneventful EXCEPT, Kaido made his FIRST kill.  He killed a baby bunny.   I saw him suddenly very interested in something in the grass.  I watched as he grabbed, dropped, and played with some object.  When he laid down and began to roll and then take the object in his mouth again, I decided to move in for a closer look.  Mind you, my eyes are ALWAYS on my dogs and I was only about 10 yards away from Kaido.  When I got about 3 feet away, I  heard squeaking.  I yelled back to the people, who were also very curious because of his behavior, that he had found a squeaky toy.  However, when I got even closer, I saw 4 little feet hanging out of his mouth.  He then ran away from me.  Once he finally killed the bunny, about 2 minutes later, he brought it to me and dropped it in front of me.  I then had to explain my dog killed a bunny.  Another person who hunted with Britany's picked the bunny up and took care of him.   We left the park.    I guess considering GSP's have high prey drive, it's not that bad of  a thing, except that I had NO CONTROL over my dog.   That's what scared me.  He normall comes when I call.  He RAN in the opposite direction.    Day 2, as if I hadn't had enough fun, my 2 behaved like crazed maniacs.  They were both together when Kaido made the bunny kill.  The two were high on bunny adrenalin.  They were okay at first, but then every new high spirited excited medium or small dog that came in the park, they decided to be a pack and taunt.  They were playing with their intended prey.  I recognize it now.  It's prey drive, and they were trying to illicit a chase.  They choose a target. Kaido begins circling, and Maybrie is barking this high pitch, crazed excited bark.  Kaido moves in closer, and Maybrie they both start trying to dominate this dog.  They soft mouthed, but in an assertive way, the legs, neck, of the dog, and I couldn't stop them.   Luckily, they finally "sat" on command, and I was able to get them.  I put both of them in the down position and on their side and allowed all the other dogs to come up to them and sniff.  They didn't like it.  They left that dog alone (mind you, this is the SAME dog they played GREAT with yesterday.   The pup was only 5 months old, BEAUTIFUL Britany, and super sweet. They went after her one more time, and I actually had to pick Pearl up to keep my two off of her.    They did this with one more dog who had just entered the park in an excited state, and I leashed them and took them home.  My ONLY saving grace was that I knew EVERY ONE of those owners very well.  They all knew my dogs to be easy going, other than the occasional 75 pound against a 4 pound yorkie, but I was always in control.    They were all fine with it and also appreciative that I was actively working with and training my dogs during their park visit and during the prey chases.   However, I am so embarrassed.  I am worried they will never be able to be around other dogs.  

I purchased two Sport Dog collars, and have been letting them get used to them.  I put them on and we go outside and play fetch or bubbles, or take a walk, or bike ride.  I want them to associate the collar with....."Oh boy, we are going to go have fun.  They are well trained on basic sit, come, heel, and whoa and leave it....   UNLESS they are after PREY.  

I am really afraid, because they say you cannot use the collar for a "leave it" command if they are focused on another dog.  I want to be able to illicut at least a "here" response from a collar nick if I see he is going toward something that is not okay....  Is this possible?       

I can't see them actually picking up another dog and shaking it until it dies, but then again, I never thought I would see them actively gang up as a pack to taunt and dominate another dog.  They almost had a chase, and I'm afraid the "kill" would or could come next.   They LOVE the dog park.  I don't necessarily want my dogs back at the dog park, but an open field somewhere would be nice.  I need to be able to trust that they will listen  first though.   I have not started with the shocks at all yet.   I am going to wait one more week, maybe two.  Don't want them to become collar wise.

Also, what number do most people shock with?  Kaido is SO sensitive to correction.  I think he needs a 1/2 button!  He is my chicken, and if I pull the leash to hard to correct a heel, he sits down immediately and looks at me like he is SO confused.  He is either confused or completely stubborn.....which is possible!   So nervous to start using the collar.  I took them for a bike ride today and almost went over the handlebars because Kaido saw a squirrel and STOPPED IMMEDIATELY when he saw it  It was as if I told him "Whoa."   I didn't even see the darn squirrel.  Maybrie saw a squirrel, and took off after it. Almost fell.  If I see something, and I say "leave it," before they focus, they are perfect angels.   I wanted to shock and say "NO" but I am afraid to shock on a bike ride because Kaido might think the bike shocked him.  Who knows what he might think.  I thought I would have at least some control over my dogs with the collar......but I'm afraid to use it!   

I have to use the local dog park because it is the really the only option I have to let my GSP run free. I run with him a little but have had some minor knee issues so I can not do that enough. I have a dogtra ecollar and use it at the dog park. The park I go to is about 5 acres and has a walking path around the outer edge. I try to avoid the peak times and I also keep moving. I usually meet a couple GSPs early in the morning and leave before it gets crowded.

Sometimes during the week I can see my pup needs to run so I will brave the park during the busy times. It seems that when it is busy, a lot of people stand by the entrance and just think their dogs will play. However, the dogs tend to hang out and if they do play the pack mentality kicks in and their is usually some growling that is more aggressive than just play growling. There is also often someone who brings a 4 or 5 month old dog that does not really have the confidence to be there with so many dogs. These seem to attract my pup for some reason.

Again I keep moving and stay on the edges of the park. But these dogs are fast and can get involved in the action even if I am trying to stay away.

The action is hard to resist for my GSP so if I see a some pack activiity starting to happen or he is playing too aggressive with a smaller or younger dog I use my ecollar to make sure he listens when I call him. I find it works very well on "leave it" and "come". He usually doesn't need it and it is just for reinforcment, but sometimes he needs just a little bump to remind him to listen. I use just enough to break his concentration so he actually hears me. The model I have is a lower power model and is adjustable from 1 to 127. One of the reasons I bought this model is that my GSP is kind of soft too and I wanted to be able to very gradually increase the power.

He is very happy to see the collar when I get it out because he knows he is going to run. When I take it out he immediately comes to the heel position and puts his head up so I can put the collar on.

 Splat........yes, I thought about e-collar training them prior to going to the dog park, but they were minding well, so I didn't see the need initially.   I was sort of hoping I wouldn't have to train with an e-collar....not that I am opposed to them at all.  Just thought my voice would be enough. NOT SO!  I forgot to factor in the "distraction" factor.

As for zapping!  I'm not zapping!  I haven't even turned  the e-collar on! I haven't even charged it!  For now,  I have them wearing their collars during fun times, and then just periodically off and on for an hour or 2 during the day. I also let them see me wear the remote at times. Especially during training.  They are quite curious about this "thing"  I have hanging around my neck, and come sniff it all the time!   They don't know it has no charge!  

 kpwlee.....Yes, I do agree with you 100%.  Because he came to us at 7 months, and he was initially afraid of my husband, and seemed comforted by having his sister around, we sort of catored to that......it was a mistake.  They greet each other before they greet us when I take them out of their kennels.  They are a pack for sure, but they do respect us as pack leaders and mind well with "off" commands. etc.  We can leave a plate of food in front of them, tell them no, and come back and it's still there!  Kaido initially had some issues with growling when my daughter tried to get him off of her bed.  That was stopped immediately.  He was banned from her bed for a LONG while with "off" training sessions.  He can now sit politely on her bed, and when commanded, "off," he immediately jumps off.   They are both highly trainable.  For that I am thankful.  The error clearly lies in my lack of knowledge and training experience.  I watch Cesar regularly.....even the re-runs!!   I also read and have many training books from acclaimed trainers.   And...better yet, I have you all fellow GSP lovers to bounce ideas, questions and concerns with!   Thank goodness!  I am very thankful for you all and for this forum!  

Not long after I got Archer (he was 10 months) he was showing some dog/dog aggression but only when Zoe was around, he was very protective of her.  Having just had a springer spaniel that was both dog & people aggressive, I did not want to go down that road again because it was absolutely miserable.  I went ahead and took Archer to a professional trainer to work with him.  In the beginning I took only him and he did fine but whenever we added Zoe to the mix that's when he would become dog aggressive and would not leave her side.

Back in August I went on vacation and took them to a new kennel where they have supervised play with other dogs. When I dropped them off I stressed to them that Archer could be dog aggressive and had terrible separation anxiety from Zoe. They told me not to worry because they were experienced with this and would introduce both of them gradually to the pack.

Fast forward to today and I am happy to report that they now go to "dog camp" twice a week and they have told me that it's incredible how much Archer has changed - now when he goes to camp he's like "Zoe who"?  He goes off and plays with other dogs and could care less where his sister is or what she's doing.  I will say that in the beginning they told me that he would act up and would be given a time out where he had to sit out and watch the other dogs play - he caught on real quickly!

Also, I found it interesting this morning when I dropped them off the girl was telling me that since Archer & Zoe have started coming they have added 4 more GSPs that come on a regular basis and they all seem to migrate together when playing.

I don't know if you might have a facility like this as an option, but it has worked wonders for Archer. I personally was not confident enough in my training skills to help Archer which is why I reached out to a professional trainer.  Now I have two very happy dogs that are people & dog social and totally tuckered out twice a week.

If you like Cesar, you may enjoy Michael Ellis if you haven't heard about him already.

For discussion on e-collar, and to sift through the selling, skip to the 3:00 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBb9PZ5SJrE

Or  http://youtu.be/HDZqVpGVy60

 Wow!  Kpwlee.  Thanks for the link.  That sounds exactly like what my two were like.  It was like something you would expect from some "hoodrats!"  They were not themselves in that moment.  It was very scary, and the description you gave totally describes the scene.  It is good to know that it may never happen again, but I will DEFINITELY not go back there with both of them again, and will not go back until I have them 100% trained with the e-collar, and feel confident that they will not harm another dog.   I think that the "baby bunny kill" definitely had "something" to do with it.  

 Thank you so much, Rose, for the link. I will definitely watch this.  I have watched several, so I may have run accross him, but am definitely interested.  I do love and practice Cesar techniques religiously!   I believe in his principals of the pack mentality, and believe it is extremely important for the pups to believe that WE are their pack leaders, and not the other way around!

I can't wait to watch! 

 I LOVE your story about Archer and Zoe.   Thank you SO MUCH for sharing!   It turns out we have several facilities like the one you mention above.  One in particular really apeals to me, and I honestly thought about taking my two, but was really nervous that I would be told Maybrie could go, but not Kaido.   They do a rigorous temperament testing.  It takes them 2 hours because they evaluate the dogs, and then work with them, and then introduce them slowly to other dogs.   The place has raving reviews, and I know my 2 would love it, but I would just die if something happened to another dog because of my two.  I really think they may have to separate the 2 of them.  I don't know.  They do say that they also prefer to temperament test when the owners are not around because they behave differently, more true to how they would act in our absence.   When we had the labs, I took them to a place that did a thorough temperament testing right in front of us.   So I'm nervous to bring them to this place that won't let me watch.   What do you think?    This is the place I would like to go to that is right down the street. http://www.darcisallaboutdogs.com/gallery.php     The press gave it great reviews, and I know people that go there...still nervous!    I have to call 24 hours in advance to get them temperament tested.      I can already see the scene in my mind.  If they test them separately, they are going to have to pull Kaido in.  If they bring Maybrie with him, and then add a little dog to the mix, they are going to instigate and instant "game on" pack mentality!   My two are going to get their first fail!   That statement is probably another reason I shouldn't be there when they are temperament tested!  My energy will definitely give off nervous energy, and they don't need that.  Especially Kaido!     

 Texas Belle, everything you said make a lot of sense.  I agree, I will use the collar only for the 'here' command.   I too use 'leave it' the SAME way you do, only by voice.....well everything is by voice right now!    They are 100% on 'leave it' for cats, squirrels, etc......IF I catch them before they see it.   I use the 'leave it' command on EVERY bike ride, and/or, if they spot something on the ground that they want to pick up....I don't mind if they pick it up usually, but it's a great training tool!  With the bike it is extremely important that they 'leave it' for obvious reasons, so, aside from 'here' and 'sit', that is one of the earliest commands we taught!     I also think that 100% recall is extremely important, and even better than 'leave it' because it demands, as you said, their attention back to you, and that they run the opposite direction, towards you.    I think 'sit' on a button is going to be a lot harder, and less reliable when they are in the chase than a recall.   The GSP minds are running like crazy.....it would be easier for them to keep running in the opposite direction and get a 'good boy' than to have to sit in one place!    I'm so glad again to hear that my dogs are not the only ones that like to kill small furry things!   

Thanks!

 Okay, so NEVER believe the media!  I went today, on impulse, to check out the doggie center to have my two temperament tested.   Boy, was that a joke!!  First of all the advertisement states call 24 hours ahead, but when I called today, they told me I could come anytime and just drop my 2 pups off.  I walked in, and the noise was SO overwhelming.  There were two rooms, one small 5x5 room on the right for small pugs and whatnot, and a 11x5 room on the left for the.....anything over 15 pounds.   Kaido and Maybrie were FREAKED out, and didn't want to come in.   The lady grabbed a spray bottle so she could "keep all the dogs in while my 2 entered."     Two of them tried to jump all over Maybrie, and Maybrie kindly corrected them, and then looked at me like, PLEASE, GET US OUT!!   I asked the lady what sort of temperament testing she did, because she was SO ready to throw my two "high prey drive dogs" in with a lab puppy, two other pups, and a senior dog who was clearly bored.   She said, "oh, well we just observe them for 2 hours to see how they interact with the others. I think your 2 will be just fine.  They don't seem aggressive at all."    I asked her where they played outside, and she looked at me like I was crazy.  She said they are taken out back on leash in the alley when they have to go to the bathroom.   I asked what games they play and how they interact with the dogs and if anyone is in the room with them.  She replied, "No, they are right there, we can hear if anything starts up!"  I grabbed my two pups and we headed out of there!!  I told her, "This is not the type of environment I feel comfortable leaving my two pups in.  I'm not going to even bother leaving them for 2 hours to see how they interact with the others!"   I was just looking for some place they could socialize and interact safely with larger dogs their size and with experienced supervision, like DLord found!!   The ONLY one I know of in Houston is downtown.   I also wanted to have them temperament tested.  The test the place downtown put my two labs through was intense!   I just want to know what behaviors if any, I need to be watching for.   I know I sound like an obsessive  paranoid mom!!   What I saw at the park that day, really threw me for a loop!!   Just wasn't expecting these two lap babies to do what they did!!    Anyway....man, check out the places you leave your babies!!