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Subject: Hunting preserve birds ?
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tgattoUser is Offline
Lake in the Hills, IL
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12/14/2011 12:36 PM  
Posted By pixie bee on 12/14/2011 12:26 PM
I love it!
Fish!
I bet she's got some great stories about the one that got away!!!

Actually, the stories are the ones that didn't.  Nothing quite like a dog with dead-fish breath, or worse, Dead-fish smell from rolling in it .  Lake-house is a good 3 hour car drive, and it always seemed like we were caught in traffic around Chicago when she got one...  Sophie never did have good manners...

Back to the topic - no real issues hunting the dogs on pen-raised birds, or is the OP comment about his buddy that only hunts on wild birds (I think 10 - 15 birds in the dogs lifetime was the comment...) the preferred.  I don't think that (only wild birds) is a good thing for the dog.  I would rather keep my dogs on pen raised birds more often than wild birds that occasionally.


It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
pixie beeUser is Offline

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12/14/2011 4:35 PM  
I would like to hear how the Brittany performed.

I do think that if a healthy population of birds is available then this is prefered.
If we want a trained bird dog then pen raised will need to be used.

We have moved away from pen raised to better evaluate our dogs as hunters.



"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
russ nickellUser is Offline
KC Mo.
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12/15/2011 6:16 AM  

The Brit did not do well she has no idea what she is suppost to do as far as I could tell. I found several things interesting for one Bill asked me like he could not believe I did it, why I didn't hunt my dogs on a check cord. Then he could not believe I let Murphy range out the way I did, He acted surprised when Murphy locked down and held point for four or five mins till we got there. On the way to Murphy we found Greta on point so stopped and picked up the single she had found with Murphy staying on point through the shot and Greta's retrieve. I explained to Bill that I try and shoot between 100 and 200 birds over my dogs every year (In my area this could not be done with hunting only wild birds because of their numbers).

   As to my two pointing non game birds Murphy ignores everything except quail, pheasent, and chuckers in fact he even has a pecking order for them. To Murphy quail trumps pheasent and chuckers in fact once or twice I have seen him leave a point on one of those two when he has winded quail in the same area. Greta points all three equally and also pigeons and of all things turtles (she is one of the great turtle hunters of the bird dog world even though she gets bored pointing them after awhile and picks them up and brings them to me since I won't walk over and flush them) also rabbits but unlike birds or turtles you can tell a rabbit point cause her tail wags ever so slowly when pointing a rabbit. While hunting in my area I have ran into a few woodcocks both dogs will point them but encounters are maybe one or two a year and I refuse to shot them since I would feel like I had to eat it then.

tgattoUser is Offline
Lake in the Hills, IL
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12/15/2011 12:32 PM  

So, I guess then the conclusion would be that Wild birds are prefered, where available. Where not available, experience with birds is preferable to no experience.

Is there any risk associated with hunting pen-raised birds? In thinking about this last night, I believe this may be a hard question to answer definitively. I realize that a dog raised on pen-raised bird hunting will probably not have the finesse necessary to immediately hunt-up wild-birds as effectively as a dog brought up on wild birds only, but is there increased confidence that they could learn such skills? What are the risks associated (if any) to bringing-up a dog on pen-raised birds, and are they able to be over-come?


It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd
pixie beeUser is Offline

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12/15/2011 1:40 PM  

So, I guess then the conclusion would be that Wild birds are prefered, where available. Where not available, experience with birds is preferable to no experience.


Absolutely.

I refered to the 2nd half of your post twice already in previous posts.

A dog with a good nose,desire and intelligence would be behind the learning curve but I think would eventually do well given a substantial amount of wild bird contacts over a few years - I say years b/c hunting them up can be done in the off season as long as we don't disturb nesting.



"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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12/15/2011 4:16 PM  
A good friend of mine trained her dog on pen raised and took him all the way through Master Hunter that way and this last bird season her husband took him to South Dakota bird hunting and they brought home a ton of wild pheasant. From what they told me he had no problems making the transition, and their freezer seems to support that observation. He also had not been on anything but quail either. Granted he is a really good GSP and got his MH at 2 YO, but even so he handled the transition with no major issues.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
pixie beeUser is Offline

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12/15/2011 4:24 PM  
TexasBelle,

It does sound impressive.

I was impressed with young titled dogs for a long while. Truth is, a dog does not have to be a good hunter (or hunt at all) in order to pass high level testing.
I don't want to knock pheasant hunting in S Dakota but it is common knowledge that the birds are so plentiful you don't need a dog.







"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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12/15/2011 4:47 PM  
Maybe so, but for a dog who has never been on wild or pheasant I was impressed. This dog is a special boy as he is very very sweet too. I actually considered breeding to him when I bred Halo, but decided to wait as he was an unproven stud and at the time was a little young (just under 2YO) and didn't have all his health clearances yet. I bred to my friends older male and was very pleased. I may eventually breed Fauna to this boy, but still have to decide if I want to do that as it would be a total outcross. I still have plenty of time to decide.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
GunnarUser is Offline

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Posts:288


12/15/2011 7:08 PM  
Great stuff. So Russ From what you said I'm guessing your friend hunts his dog on a check cord? This is pretty common prtice untill the dog is broken. Whatever you consider broken to be. Some thik steady to shot some say steady to fall. Whatever the case that dog should hold point and I use the check cord to teach them that, then steady to flush and I do like them steady to fall. Not there yet but we'll get there. You friend proves what my wise old friend said " no birds, no bird dog". I feel sorry for the dog.

Training for testing and training for hunting are two totally different things. Somewhere in the AKC rules I have to dig them out they talk about a well rounded experienced dog. At two unless that dog has traveled the country extensivly east to west north to south IMHO it doesn't meet that criteria. There are a lot of birds to hunt from sharpies to blue scale, phez, chucks, and partarmigan. White Tarms running on ice the dog needs to point move repoint move etc... It doesn't mean it's not a good or even great highly trainable dog, but it's hard to be experienced at that age. I'll dig through the rule book tomorrow and post up the link and we can discuss the meaning :)
I'll give you an example, if my dog goes on point and I'm looking around and I dont see the bird, and it happens a lot with hens in corn or brown grass and my eye's aint what they used to be. I call the dog up read him some and let him repoint, even if I have to woah him into it. At that point I have trained the dog to stay solid on point so I am confusing him so I woah him back into a point, he has never failed me with this, There have been times when I can't see the bird he will literally get a few inches from the bird. In a test I would fail, hunting I'm filling my bag. That takes experience on the dogs part as well as the handler.

To Todds post I would say flight risk or lack thereof but in my earlier post like I said I use traps and a check cord once you get the dog steady it should't be an issue of him grabbing them. Thats the real hazzard is you never want your dog grabbing a bird.

I dunno about the finesse thing. My dog has been trained mostly 90% pen raised birds and he knows exactly what to do. What I like to do is take him out and let him point geese. If he gets to close off they go ;) Bout the best I got on LI in the way of wild birds. The dog should know what to do and he may bust a covey or two but he should figure it out quickly. If I paid money to hunt I would read the dog and if I had to I would woah him into a point. But you have to be on your game that way the dog knows the minute he catches scent he has to stop. Shouldn't take much for him him to figure it out. All that said I would put my dog in any field anytime ( yes thats my sin of pride) and be confident he'd be fine ;)

Also please note a lot depends on how fast and mature the dog is like people some mature faster then others. Some you have to run the stupid outta be fore ya start hunting for the day ( like my shorthair ) but my DD I open the box and he's on his game and he's the younger of the two. Go figure.

Pixe I just love your take on stuff =)
pixie beeUser is Offline

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Posts:4450


12/15/2011 7:34 PM  
Pixe I just love your take on stuff =)


Why thanks,

hope I don't offend with my crass,political incorrectness




"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
pixie beeUser is Offline

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12/15/2011 7:38 PM  
An uproven stud -

I wouldn't worry too much about this as far as ability goes. Dogs that have what it takes will pass it along,dogs who don't produce themselves are a man made success.

total outcross -

not a bad idea if physically they compliment each other


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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MH
Posts:7844


12/15/2011 8:18 PM  
I agree on the outcross, but I do like to see at least one litter of what a stud can produce. Just an quirk of mine. I probably would have still bred to the him, but he was a bit too young when Halo came in season and I wanted to breed her as she was getting older. Timing was just bad. We shall see with Fauna. The male is out of a Belgium dog and a local bitch. He is a very handsome dog and a hunting fool.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
GunnarUser is Offline

MH
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Posts:288


12/16/2011 6:21 AM  
Posted By pixie bee on 12/15/2011 7:34 PM
Pixe I just love your take on stuff =)



Why thanks,

hope I don't offend with my crass,political incorrectness

 

Nope your pretty succinct and usually dead on. Takes quite a bit to offend me, not sure if it's possible really.

 

oneal3337User is Offline
Great Falls, Mt
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Posts:107


12/16/2011 1:25 PM  
This is a very interesting topic. I've never hunted a preserve because we're blessed to live where there are great hunting opportunities just minutes from home. I have shot released birds during NSTRA trials and some fun hunts and IMO opinion released birds are usually easier for the dogs because they don't run as much and your usually in a confined area (40 acres vs square miles of territory). I believe a dog that hunts mainly preserve birds should be able to adjust to hunting wild birds if given enough time and freedom. By freedom I mean being allowed to hunt without being over handled and allowed to point and relocate.
I've hunted with friends who are serious field trialers and their dogs do well on huns and sharpies but struggle with pheasants. Their dogs are trained to point and hold point until released. So you end up with a dog on point and the pheasant 200 yards away and still running. If you let your dog point and relocate while you try and work the bird between you and the dog or some other obstruction you'll greatly increase your bird harvest. I think it's harder for the hunter to adjust from hunting preserves to wild wide open spaces then it is for the dogs.
As for hunting South Dakota pheasants one of the dirty little secrets is SD regulations require professional operations to release pheasants to supplement the population. Last year over 1 million pheasants were released in SD. So if your hunting on a pay to hunt place there is a good chance your hunting preserve birds.
Texas BelleUser is Offline
Austin, TX
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MH
Posts:7844


12/16/2011 2:05 PM  
I don't understand why that is a "dirty little secret." I think it is a wonderful requirement and is good land management and conservation. We have private land owners in TX doing the same thing with quail in areas where the fire ants devastated the quail population. We are actually starting to see coveys come back into their old habitats because of good conservation practices and better control of the fire ants. I wish more private land owners would do the same thing.

And regardless of the conditions or type of birds in SD, I still think my friends dog made a fantastic adjustment as he had never been on pheasant of any kind, nor had he ever seen SD before. These are smart dogs and regardless of what they hunt, pin or wild, they are smart enough to make the transition. As for what we hunt on, as far as I am concerned it is whatever we have access too. The dogs don't care a hoot one way or the other.

Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)

Yellow Rose GSPs

 photo FaunaBISJan20110001cropped_resized_zps96af44b6.jpg  photo DSC_0044_cropped_zps0a25f9ff.jpg  photo DSC_0030a_zps3c822a4a.jpg  photo DSC_0016cropped_zpsab533745.jpg

"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato
GunnarUser is Offline

MH
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Posts:288


12/16/2011 4:27 PM  
SD does a lot of tourism hunting business and they never mention pen raised birds all you hear about is wild birds. Maybe they dont want that getting out.
oneal3337User is Offline
Great Falls, Mt
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Posts:107


12/16/2011 5:38 PM  
The dirty secret is most places advertise wild birds and won't tell you they're released birds unless you ask. There are a few that are upfront and post this fact on their web site so if you don't ask you're paying a premium price for birds you can hunt at home much cheaper. It's just a fact that people should be aware of.
Secondly I didn't say anything to disparage your friends dog. I'm sure the dog is very good if not great.
I know GSPs are smart dogs and excel at hunting or I wouldn't own them. That's why I said the dogs probably handle the transition from preserve hunting to wild bird hunting better then the hunters.
pixie beeUser is Offline

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12/19/2011 6:56 AM  
I believe a dog that hunts mainly preserve birds should be able to adjust to hunting wild birds if given enough time and freedom. By freedom I mean being allowed to hunt without being over handled and allowed to point and relocate.


It's not the range that the dogs can have issues with - it's the use of nose,terrain,wind conditions,drive and intelligence.

When a dog goes from having scent upon exiting the vehicle to having to actually hunt up birds it gets difficult. Dogs may have great stamina in the first 1/2 hour and may loose a lot of drive if no birds have been encountered and there is no scent. And when there is a 1/2 hour or more between finds dogs can loose focus.

The best dogs are successful wild bird dogs.


"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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