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russ nickell
KC Mo.
MH
Posts:83
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| 12/13/2011 10:41 AM |
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Went hunting a couple of weeks ago with an old freind and his brother. He was telling me that he did not believe in training or hunting his dog on pen raised birds. Hence he had a 1 1/2 yr old Brit that had never pointed a quail and had only had perhaps 10 or 11 bird contacts in her life. Now even though I hunt about 85% pen raised birds and 15% wild birds I have found my dogs tend to respond to the conditions and types of birds with little problem because of past learned experience. So my question is what is everyone feeling on the wild vs pen raised bird question? |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7856
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| 12/13/2011 11:14 AM |
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| If you have wild birds easily available then great, but most of us live in an area where we do not have that luxury. So, you do what you gotta do. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/13/2011 12:06 PM |
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Here's my take -
the best dogs are wild bird dogs - the reason why is b/c the birds actually have to be found and handled and a lot of times there are no birds,a dog needs to have the drive to continue and intelligence to search and handle effeciantly and effectively. At a preserve, we know the birds are there we just need to keep walking and preserve birds smell and behave differently.
Now, with that said, a dog should be able to handle any game thrown its way and that comes with experience.
Only one of my dogs was worked on the preserve and he has learned a lot of bird sense, on the other hand, my other dog has not been on preserve hunts - has hunted pen raised birds - loose ones - and has bird sense,too.
What wild bird hunting does is expose the greatness or weaknesses of the dog, which will otherwise be hidden by" guarenteed birds"
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Gunnar
MH
Posts:288
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| 12/13/2011 2:39 PM |
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This is why I do a lot of clean up's at preserves, birds tend to be a little more educated they have been chased, shot at, had to hide from predators etc. Everyone will tell you wild birds are the best I do tend to agree and disagree somewhat. A wild bird will fly if the dog gets to close, but if ya hunt quail they like to run untill they have to fly every bird every situation is different. I also think that if your in a situation where you don't think the birds will fly the dog should be on a check cord, specially if you are unsure of the dog. We all make mistakes I have seen " finished dogs " grab birds. Dog gets edgy and the bird moves a bit dog grabs the bird. What causes that, bad woah training bad handling bad dog.
Some of it also I find depends on weather or not or how hard the guy putting out the birds sleeps the birds. You could put out 10 and find 10 or 0, another factor is the quality of the bird, is the pen to small, how long have they been in the pen, did they come from a quality breeder?
Tell ya the truth I like to "let the birds teach the dog " I love when the dog blows it and the bird flys off and the dog is left standing there with that look in his eye like what did I do? It's even better when I have them on a check cord. I have had preserve birds get up and go with the dog corded. That honestly is my fault for not reading the dog.
For training I like to use traps and if the dog gets to close I pop the trap hold the dog and the bird flys off. This actually when you think about it is a very complex topic are we talking hunting or training. I could have a whole board meeting in my head on this one  Some guys will hunt the dog and then try to correct the mistakes after the season. I did that and don't care for it so I treat every situation as a training situation.
Now all that said since we opened a huge pandoras box here how'd that Brittney do? |
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tgatto
Lake in the Hills, IL
MH
Posts:411
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| 12/14/2011 8:38 AM |
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I have no educated, experiential, or objective evidence-based answer here. My personal thoughts are that it is in the mind of the handler (talking about the difference between a pen-raised bird, and a wild bird). I tend to agree that wild birds are more "experienced" overall, although as Gunnar states, preserve birds will gain experience in the fields over time. In any case there has to be a reason that, according to Pheasants Forever, only 10% of released, pen-raised birds will survive a year (I believe that was the statistic posted on their website).
As far as the scent goes, I have not seen evidence that wild birds smell different than pen-raised (if someone could post that study it would be GREAT!), although I have heard stories of differences in the behavior of the dog. There are probably differences also in the smell of different types of birds (Pigeons vs. Dove vs. Grouse vs. quail vs. chuckar vs. Pheasant...), but I know my dogs have pointed quail and chuckar and dove just as hard as a pheasant - even without experience on a particular type of bird (Particularly in the case of the chuckars, and doves)...
So, in the world according to Todd, the main difference lies in quantity of birds (in a given area, of course), and tactics used to bag the birds. To a lesser degree (again, my opinion), the intelligence of the birds - but again this relates to tactics in hunting them. I don't know - I love my hunting experiences on the clubs that I have hunted, but I also do not mind long walks in the wild with my dog either. |
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It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd |
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Gunnar
MH
Posts:288
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| 12/14/2011 9:37 AM |
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Todd a very wise man once said to me " No birds, no bird dog". Nice post.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/14/2011 9:44 AM |
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Your dogs point dove?
Ya know, mine never have - they completely ignore them and we have seen flocks in the corn fields. They also ignore turkey.
I have strange dogs.
I will differ in opinion based on my experiences. I do believe pen raised birds give off a different scent,esp if they have been planted.
Anywho....
the difference, IMO, is not the bird itself that makes the difference (wild or pen raised) but the difference is in the qualtiy of performance that is demanded of hunting wild birds.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7856
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| 12/14/2011 9:49 AM |
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pixie - Mine don't point dove either. In fact, Ringo doesn't even like pigeon. He will point pigeon, but his points are not nearly as intense.
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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tgatto
Lake in the Hills, IL
MH
Posts:411
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| 12/14/2011 10:14 AM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 12/14/2011 9:44 AM
Your dogs point dove?
Ya know, mine never have - they completely ignore them and we have seen flocks in the corn fields. They also ignore turkey.
I have strange dogs.
I will differ in opinion based on my experiences. I do believe pen raised birds give off a different scent,esp if they have been planted.
Anywho....
the difference, IMO, is not the bird itself that makes the difference (wild or pen raised) but the difference is in the qualtiy of performance that is demanded of hunting wild birds.
Yeah, nobody was more surprised than me when it happened. We work in a field across the street from my house. The field consists of about a 200 X 100 yd grass field (occasionally cut) with an equal, perpendicular unkept wild field. I was working quartering with Sadie when she locked-up (like the picture I have posted with her crouched down). Now, all we have around my house in terms of birds are doves (and the occasional crane/heron pair). Anyways, I started moving toward her (she was pointing toward me), and a dove flew-out right in front of me. It was REAL early in the morning, so it scared the... out of me. She was under a year old when she did it, so that could've had something to do with it.
Care to share your experiences on scents of Pen/planted vs. Wild? Was it dog behavior (like I said, I have heard...)? I can understand dizzy/planted birds having some mixed human scents with them from the handling, and I have read some articles on planting birds during training with these considerations in mind (use of gloves, long-tossing the bird to separate the scent...). I just don't know about the pen birds having different scents, and how you would measure/verify that aside from dog behavior around pen and wild birds at an equivalent time, in an equivalent environment...
Ok, maybe now I am just playing devil's advocate - Truly, I am not trying to start a fight over how a bird smells  . |
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It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd |
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Gunnar
MH
Posts:288
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| 12/14/2011 10:21 AM |
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Ya know I wonder sometimes if it's the bird the dog is tracking or me? When my GSP was a pup 6 months or so I kinda set him up for success. I parked the truck where he could not see me and covered his crate took 5 pheasants and planted them up a corn row. I should mention there was about six inches of snow on the ground but I don't think it maters.
First mistake no check cord.
I let the dog out of the truck and he hit the ground running, nose to the ground and he followed my foot prints to the first bird and busted it. It flew straight up the row dog in hot pursuit busting the next 4 and then having a marry chase for about 15 minutes. I finally get the dog under control, get him back in the truck and home we go.
Flash forward to the summer. Bunch of us are training again pup can't see where I put the bird. Dog comes out of the crate and it's like he has a string attached to his nose straight to the bird 100+ yards away. I was training with pigeons.
Couple of things I learned, I read someplace birds have a scent cone, the ones on a pigeon is about 100 yards long. Imagine the width of that cone after starting at the bird getting progressively wider over the length of 100 yards. So it doesn't surprise me but again was he tracking the bird or me? So we now plant for each other. My buddy's plant for my dog I plant for them but they still smell humans.
Smartest dogs on the planet as far as I'm concerned. If a wild bird can fool em you better work even harder.
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Gunnar
MH
Posts:288
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| 12/14/2011 10:24 AM |
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My dogs totally ignore doves they are all over the place where I live to them it's just another tweety bird. Never seen em track or get wind of a turkey would be interesting. They used to point bee's on occasion till they learned to eat them off the bush without being stung. 
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tgatto
Lake in the Hills, IL
MH
Posts:411
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| 12/14/2011 10:50 AM |
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| Yeah, I like I implied - I don't know if Sadie would point doves now that she has had as many pheasant as she has had. She also pointed some huge, green bug on our patio around that same time - that was a sight-point though (meaning I don't THINK it smelled like a bird), so it really doesn't count . My last dog, Sophie, did point a chuckar one outing even though she had never had any experiences on chuckar, but had been hunting 5 - 6 years on pheasant. I seem to remember her point, and look being a little different, but that may just be my bias and hindsight. I am not ready to say that her behavior was totally different - based upon one point. |
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It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/14/2011 11:02 AM |
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Oh yeah, cranes, my dogs ignore them,too.
We have a blue heron that visits our pond,dogs could care less until it flys off,they are huge.
Scents -
Birds smell yucky! no fight there,right?
I rely on the dog's behavior to indicate to me what the scents are.
Pointing intensity is not an indicator,for me.
Handling birds makes a huge difference,IMHO. The dogs can smell human scent days afterwards. Dizzying birds,IMO, produces hormones that changes the scent,same as a dog can smell a wounded bird and knows to pick up and not point it,even when there is no blood. A wet bird that does not fly is scented differently.
Do I have scientific studies,no, my classroom is the dogs and game animals.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/14/2011 11:09 AM |
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Ok ,get this -
Haiko points frogs.It's the best thing EVER!
Emily has a bug catching net and I think Haiko knows this.
He goes over to the wetland area and stand frogs,he doesn't see most of them. Emily goes over and looks around - no frogs but Haiko won't leave. Emily noses around for a bit and out pops a frog - then the 2 of them hunt the frog.
Keeps the 2 of them busy - that's a good thing.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7856
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| 12/14/2011 11:18 AM |
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| pixie - I had to laugh and the hunting frogs story. Mine hunt toads. If they are really quiet outside at night I know they are on the trail of a toad. The fun part is when they bring it to me they are always foaming at the mouth because the darn toads always pee in their mouth when they get snagged. BTW the dogs never kill the toads, they just bring them to me. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Gunnar
MH
Posts:288
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| 12/14/2011 11:19 AM |
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Posted By pixie bee on 12/14/2011 11:09 AM
Ok ,get this -
Haiko points frogs.It's the best thing EVER!
Emily has a bug catching net and I think Haiko knows this. ![<img src=]() " src="/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/blue/emoticons/smile.gif" />
He goes over to the wetland area and stand frogs,he doesn't see most of them. Emily goes over and looks around - no frogs but Haiko won't leave. Emily noses around for a bit and out pops a frog - then the 2 of them hunt the frog.
Keeps the 2 of them busy - that's a good thing.
That's pretty awesome =)
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tgatto
Lake in the Hills, IL
MH
Posts:411
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| 12/14/2011 11:28 AM |
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Sophie used to stand-off toads too! We had a toad that lived under the umbrella stand on the patio. Sophie used to wait, and watch, for hours until evening when it would come out, and she would "play" with it. She didn't like it when the toad excreted in her mouth.
Oh yeah... and fish too! Sophie would hunt fish for HOURS in the lake we go to. All day walking back, and forth (almost like she was herding the minnows...). Below are some pictures. We lost her for a whole day one time until we realized she was (mostly) under my cousin's boat (shown in pictures) where a Bass was hiding. Funny - bass hiding under a bass-tracker boat...
Darn it if we aren't off-topic again...
How do your dogs act differently - pen vs. wild? |
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It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd |
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Gunnar
MH
Posts:288
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| 12/14/2011 11:43 AM |
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Ya know something interesting Todd said is the birds first Chukkar yet, they know it's a bird. He's never smelled anything like it before but he knows what it is so he pointed it. That's why it the point probably looked a little different. He knew it was a bird, breeding said he should point but in his thinking brain he wasn't sure so he fell back on his breeding that's MHO. Kinda a cross of both what you and Pixie said. I listen to guys all the time who talk about " pretty " points. Sometimes my dogs point real intense classic type points and sometimes they just point. Not sure why but I do know that when they point I trust em Some of it also I think depends on when the dog catches the scent, if he's working it then you may get a stronger point then if he cross winds it. I can't prove that it's just a though.
Doves, we can't hunt em in NY. I know they are hunted out west I'm sure a lot of guys do. I bet if you shot a few maybe trained on a few the dog would point em.
My knuckle heads had one run in with some orange toads they found. I have no idea what these things are but the dogs would sniff and blink back off and try to grab it then go through the process again. After a bit they started to leave em alone. I betting the secrete some nasty stuff orange and red are usually bad things in the wild.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 12/14/2011 12:26 PM |
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I love it!
Fish!
I bet she's got some great stories about the one that got away!!!
How do your dogs act differently - pen vs. wild?
Too much to explain on a forum.
Spend a few seasons hunting and pointing wild birds.
Somethings are best understood when experienced.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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tgatto
Lake in the Hills, IL
MH
Posts:411
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| 12/14/2011 12:28 PM |
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Posted By Gunnar on 12/14/2011 11:43 AM
Ya know something interesting Todd said is the birds first Chukkar yet, they know it's a bird. He's never smelled anything like it before but he knows what it is so he pointed it. That's why it the point probably looked a little different.
Now, like I said, I am not exactly to the point (HA!) where I would recognize it as a "different" type of point. I would have had to see her on chuckar after that - this was a one-off. The judgement on it being "different" may have been hind-sight (i.e., "Yeah... I thought that point was different..."). Sophie had a number of other "weird" situations (point while sinking in mud, multiple birds, pointing birds in frozen-over snow-drifts, etc...) as I am sure all dogs do.
Don't mean to have an ID-10-T error in judgement here (ID10T  ) but what is MHO/IMO...?
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It is watching the dogs work that I thoroughly enjoy, and love. I could get by with just watching them work - if it weren't for all the training, and the joy they exhibit when they pick-up, and deilver to hand a bird that they pointed, and you shot. - Todd |
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