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everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3166
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| 06/30/2011 11:55 AM |
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Slightly off-topic: our dogs know where my husband keeps his running gear. As soon as he heads to get anything out of that closet, they race upstairs to wait by the front door.  They love their runs! |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 06/30/2011 1:02 PM |
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LOL yes I often think to myself how can he get this excited for something that happens everyday  |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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MainCreeksRemi
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:824
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| 06/30/2011 3:08 PM |
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I just wanted to say THANKS to Karen for being an AWESOME owner. So many people would have given up on a dog like Bugsy by now. He's a challenge, he's smart, and he's powerful. Three things that turn a lot of dog owners off. You however rise to the challenges he brings and are constantly making an effort to better your training with him. That says a lot!
I know that Remi opened up a whole new world of training, obedience & all together different lifestyle than with that of the girls and while its been a rollercoaster...and I'm sure will be at different points, I am very grateful for an opportunity like this with such a thinker. He's a keep me on my toes kind of dude!
So, kudos to you Karen! |
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Loved by Kelley:
Remi (7/3/2010) GSP
Morgan (5/17/2008) Choco Lab
Nallah (8/6/2006) Black Lab |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 06/30/2011 6:11 PM |
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Aw shucks Kelley - and thank you. I have worked hard and will continue to try to find the best way to elicit his best.
Your ability to see that is greatly appreciated.
As is the information that others have posted. I don't ask if I don't want honest answers |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7862
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| 06/30/2011 9:35 PM |
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| Would love to hear your progress and what things worked for you guys and which ones didn't. Dog training is a never ending learning experience and every dog is different. I think that is why I enjoy it so much. That and watching the dogs when the light bulb goes off or when they hesitate and think through the problem and make the right choice. Good luck!! |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Randy Randall
31682 E. Co. 12th St. Wellton Az. 85356 (near Yuma)
Posts:1
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| 06/30/2011 10:23 PM |
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I'm new to the forum, but have followed it for a few years now. I did not read all that the others said, but I was wondering how much, or often he get''s out to hunt. I think it's great that he has so much drive, but how does he work it off. This was ment to be a reply to Texas Belle
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Let's Hunt |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 07/05/2011 11:08 AM |
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Hi Randy, welcome to the forum.
I think it is a misconception that dogs need to "work it off".
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3166
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| 07/05/2011 11:13 AM |
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Further to what Pixie said, my experience has been that these guys don't really "work it off". The more you work them, the harder they'll work next time.
That being said, they respond pretty well when we can't exercise them for some reason ... although, I wouldn't want to let that go on for too long. They seem to store up their excess energy |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7862
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 07/05/2011 1:30 PM |
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First, 105 lbs wow! You say he is will respond to the e collar, was he ever collar conditioned or does he just think it means come, or leave it?
As far as the hunt training, are you ever going to hunt him? If not I see no reason to continue it and it may be encouraging the obsessive hunting.
Now mine are hunted, way more then average, and will kill things that come on the property, but they are not obssessive about it, he may just have a screw loose, that you aren't going to be able to tighten.
So, if you aren't going to hunt him, get him into (if you have time for a new hobby) agility, flyball, something that is active and makes him think, he needs a job.
Second if he has been e collar conditoned, don't ever let him in the yard without it. The more you turn him out and let him run from you to chase things, the more he is being rewarded for the behaviour. |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 07/05/2011 3:10 PM |
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Thank you again for the responses - first I agree with everbell in that working them hard seems to mean that is the new baseline LOL.
Trey some interesting thoughts - first in case you hadn't seen these - here he is http://www.shorthairs.net/GSPForum/tabid/220/forumid/2/postid/80915/view/topic/Default.aspx He is a lean 105.
He was/is collar conditioned properly HOWEVER the stim level necessary for when he is on something like fox is HIGH. In a normal environment doing obedience work or other training it is very low.
I have been upping the obedience and doing more collar work and his performance is excellent. It is hard to keep interest for both of us because he does as asked, at first with enthusiasm and then as if he is bored (he is). We've done some additional clicker training - I use this to teach little things or tricks.
We have done some field work with dummies with wings and he did fine.
This morning on our run a feral cat was about 30 yds in front of us, it stopped looked at us, tail moving, and then took off and went into the culvert. He didn't bolt but he was ON. And remained ON. Meaning if we stood still he was on point and poised to go, any movement from me and he would try to run. He was fixated on it for about 1/4 mile even though it was behind us. He will track, turn around, his gait is a strut, his focus is on the scent, his nose is working as if his life depends on it.
We then met a buddy of his and had to walk back towards the cat sighting - as soon as we were say 150 yds from where it disappeared he went into full alert mode. Again this continued for about 1/4 mile. We ran about another 3/4 mile and turned around.
We had to turn up the road where the cat sighting was and sure enough - he was nuts all over again, but let it go a bit sooner, but stayed in tracking mode.
If he gets a scent or has a sighting of a desired critter he will remain in intense tracking mode and searching for something...anything. He 'works' the entire run. This is what I mean by obsessive.
He's not pulling me or bolting but he's tracking and mentally he is on a search. You can't seem to get him 'back' to the happy to be out running/walking guy that he is if he doesn't get wind of a hot scent.
We have tried so many different things it isn't funny. And gave each plenty of time to see if it would work.
Trey i will not hunt him other than on controlled hunt. I have found that doing the hunt training with him has helped to gain control over him yet allowing him to use the drive. In fact the only way he can be by a body of water that has waterfowl is doing formal retrieves. You HAVE to have his full attention and keep it. Since that has been successful I think doing formal field training has potential to help him understand what his job is.
As for a new hobby - we have been working at training him as a cadaver dog for about 6 months now. he is too old to start SAR but not cadaver work. He's happiest if he gets to use his nose for a job.
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 07/05/2011 6:35 PM |
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What you have is a very high prey drive dog. Most people believe they have a one until they see a true very high prey drive dog. This type of dog is not for everyone, they are easy to train but difficult to maintain. They require very high standards.
Most people do not want this type of dog.
These are my prefered type.
I have become better at handling these types of dogs but have a ways to go, still.
A dog like this needs to have a ton of natural ability or they are worthless as hunters and unless they possess a good amount of cooperation they make only decent pets.
Any amount of prey drive is usless unless the dog can control itself.
Of course, everyone has their own list of what is acceptable as 'hunter' and 'decent pet'.
Sometimes we tend to be kennel blind.
I would say his other half is great dane?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 07/06/2011 7:28 PM |
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Pixie bee we have no way of knowing for sure what his make-up is but we'd guess Dane, gsp, and? Maybe plott.
I am aware his prey drive is very high, I'm curious as to what you mean that this type are easy to train but I do understand that he requires high standards, you cannot slip.
I know that some would not want him but we love him and are used to his ways.
He would have made someone a great hunting partner, I have no doubt about that. When I took him to the bird dog trainer he instantly loved him and wanted me to bring him regularly and hunt him. I will be taking him for further work and we'll see how it develops. I also had some guy ask to buy him to use as a hog dog!
As I said before I believe him to be cooperative but not biddable. My goal is to just develop more control over his hunting, similar to what we have achieved with the water retrieves |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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Smylinacha
Connecticut
MH
Posts:1208
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| 07/06/2011 7:57 PM |
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| Windsor gets obsessed with scents too - he goes nuts more on windy days. Not sure when or if we'll even let him hunt as his recall on a cord isn't very good if he gets distracted. He will run far and fast after something - we can't keep him free in the yard. But I can walk him and we pass rabbits and other animals and he'll want to veer off but I yell "Ay!" and give him a quick tug on his leash and he'll snap out of it. This is my first gsp - and as I am learning - these dogs want to work ALL THE TIME. I try to keep him busy in the yard - ball, running, throwing sticks even. In the house it's hide and seek with treats, fetch up and down the stairs, and I love the kong thing that rolls and you stick treats in it and it takes them a while to empty it all. I notice if I give him busy things to do, he calms down, is easier to walk, easier around the house and he listens. We never had him as a pup - we are his forth family so he basically didn't have much obedience training except for "sit". He will sit, he will stay, stand and do hugs, paw, roll over, he listens unless he hasn't had enough exercise or busy time. So I think exercise and keeping the mind going will help. Practice those commands ALL THE TIME. I'm not expert but it's getting better for me and Windsor It sure takes a lot of patience though! |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 07/07/2011 5:03 AM |
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Most people don't realize their obedience standards can be higher.
If you can not whoa a dog on game the standards are not high enough, if a dog can not be heeled past a squirrel standards are not high enough - and I mean foward,backwards and sideways.
High standards are being set when the dog understands that commands are not optional and they are not allowed to 'think' about it.
I have 2 videos to post with one of my dogs not being steady - it is TOTALLY an obedience issue. My standards need to be higher and on a more regular basis,which is difficult b/c of where I live.
A dog who is high prey drive is easy to teach b/c they are very willing and ready to work. Thru training they learn to control themselves and focus in order to get what they want. They are difficult to maintain b/c they will push the envolope ALL the time.
But, teaching is the begining of the learning process.
An untrained (very) high prey drive dog is NOT fun to hunt with. They tend to be a bull in a china shop.
They believe they own the hunt.
This is why cooperation is such an important part of a dog's makeup.
A dog who is cooperative, I mean truely cooperative, innately understands that what the leader wants is going to lead to 'good things' - IF and only IF the leader is the human.
A self hunter is useless for the foot hunter.
I do not believe these these dogs need to work all the time. This is lack of obedience and a misunderstanding of who is in charge. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3136
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| 07/07/2011 5:47 AM |
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| I actually understand what you mean by they don't need to be worked all the time to behave....we drove 8 hours to Ohio with the dogs, got to Ohio went to a party with the dogs....we didn't have to put the dogs on a leash or in their pen while there even with all the people...they stayed in the yard when we would tell them not to go any farther (it was not fenced in) and they didn't chase or jump up on one person even after being cooped up in the truck all day... |
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Terra's Owner
Planet Earth
MH
Posts:262
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| 07/07/2011 11:11 AM |
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From the photos I have seen of Bugsy and the description of his behavior, I think he has a good amount of Plott Hound in him. He must have some other large breed in him as he is way bigger than the AKC Plott standard of 50-60 lbs for a male. He is so much like my Jenny, who is also from a shelter so no good info on her heritage. She is in the 60-70 lb range.
Since we lost Sunshine, I had been putting the ecollar on Jenny everytime she was out. Normally, I only have to use the beeper, if even that, to get her to come back if she starts wandering off. She seems like she got used to having the ecollar on so now she doesn't wander off nearly as often. Now, she is totally obsessed with sticks or her ball. She doesn't care about frisbees for some reason. She is so obsessed that it is annoying. She barks at me if I don't throw the stick for her. But, this is better than wandering off so I would rather have this. On the 4th of July, I actually called her off of a deer, althought it was probably 200 yards away. I called her off a little racoon in the city when we were playing stick one night also. I couldn't believe it - she was more obsessed with the stick than the coon. Now, if I hadn't been there with the stick..... I could tell you stories for a good while. You should see Bearoff turn to stone when he is backing her...he is obsessed too.
I did find a German Shephard breeder/trainer nearby at my place in the mountains. I have boarded Jenny and Bearoff there. For things to work on with training, I mentioned that it would be good if Jenny didn't wander off so much. He said he couldn't help much with that - everyone he knew that had a Plott either kept them chained up or behind a fence because that is what they do. He said his first dog as a kid was a Redbone Coonhound so he has apparently worked with other breeds than German Shephards.
Oh, I almost forgot - a recent photo:
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John (human), Bearoff (gsp), Jenny (Plott), Sunshine (Heinz57 rip 11/4/2010), Terra (missing but still in my heart) |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 07/07/2011 11:31 AM |
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Plott Hound?
I can't see it.
It's not accurate to say a dog who is 'obessed' with wandering off must be a (Plott) hound.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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