kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
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Posts:998
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| 06/28/2011 5:32 PM |
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This might ramble I'll try to avoid that:
Bugsy his prey obsessed - he will literally hunt anything and he gets fixated quickly and you literally lose contact with him mentally. I've worked hard with him since he was a pup to have more 'input' when he is out and about and he is MUCH better.
However he still is obsessive in his hunting and I am open to ideas on how to redirect him
For instance this morning he was sick and needed to go out at 4:30 am. I went out to see how he was about 5 minutes later and he was running around completely berserk. This continued for 30 minutes or more. he had caught sight or scent of something and was out of his head. We have an acre and he is on an efence.
I eventually had to use a long line like a lasso to bring him in, seriously. Once he was in he shook it off and then looked at me like oh hey fancy meeting you here. This is a normal post hunt look.
Then at 6 am he found a box turtle and was obsessed with it to the point we had to wrangle him in. (he is 105lbs of muscle)
He was in most of the day and then went out in the midst of a thunderstorm to do his business - when he didn't come right back I knew he was back at the turtle. And he was.
He will 'leave it' but if you give him an inch he will dart off to hunt again.
We've had some scary experiences at the lake with geese and currently there are a ton of fox in the neighborhood and he is crazed by them.
If you met him you would meet a hyper, silly, well-trained dog but once he gets scent of something he is like on drugs.
Since so many of you have high prey/drive dogs and hunt with them and can let them go I thought you might have some ideas as to how to intervene
I have an ecollar and he is good with it - not perfect once stimulated and I have at times had to turn it way up to get him to respond.
In normal situations his recall is excellent but despite trying over the years I don't trust him in natural areas.
OK ramble over - ideas if you can would be greatly appreciated |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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pixie bee
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Posts:4452
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| 06/28/2011 5:46 PM |
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| Up his obedience and keep your standards high |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Max2
Oneonta NY
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Posts:1115
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| 06/29/2011 4:05 AM |
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Posted By kpwlee on 06/28/2011 5:32 PM
He will 'leave it' but if you give him an inch he will dart off to hunt
Set him up. You get ready and then don't give him the inch.
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Chris |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 06/29/2011 4:44 AM |
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I can certainly do more obedience practice but he is excellent except once he gets scent of something, then the only thing that breaks through the fog is the ecollar. and that only interrupts his focus.
Max when I say give an inch I just mean a momentary slip or subtle relaxing. I may have him moving away and seeming back to normal and like las night I just looked away from him - we were on the other side of the house and 5 ft from the door- but when I looked away from him & the door he bolted
He's clever, wiley, and obsessive
In fact he is out in pouring rain no doubt looking for the turtle from yesterday |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/29/2011 4:53 AM |
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I'm not believing it.
When not on scent - can you stop him moving away from you at around 100'?
at full speed? Can you stop him,whoa, if a bird is tossed in front of him?
Will he sit,w/o moving or whinning if you throw objects or birds out in front of him?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
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Posts:3136
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| 06/29/2011 5:22 AM |
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I have done different things with my dogs to set them or or teach with distraction and drive....for example we will play fetch as in free fetch you just throw the ball and the dog/s run and get it and bring it back.....
Then we do pay attention fetch....where they stand and wait, I throw the ball, they still wait and then I release them to get it....we will do this one after we really got them having fun with free fetch so it makes their intensity to get it even more....mine do great with it though they will even listen to my kids....
I have not started this yet but in obedience classes there is a recall and then down command they do....the dog is coming to you but then half way you tell him/her down... |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 06/29/2011 6:52 AM |
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Pixie Bee the only one of those he would struggle with is the sit without moving with thrown objects or birds. He wasn't exposed to birds (in a controlled way) until March at age 5.5 so live birds are still extremely exciting and a rare experience.
I have not worked with a hunt trainer with him - had I had more knowledge when he was a pup and been able to foresee that what he really needed was hunt training we might not be at this juncture
He has been through 3 obedience classes and a distraction proofing class, passing all with flying colors - all three trainers also said he was a very challenging dog - due to size, brain, independence and drive
He is not a perfectly obedient dog I am not trying to suggest he is, but he is a darn sight better than average. I have always worked with him because of his size and power.
Splat I do something similar to that with him, he isn't into fetch for the sake of fetch but we have games that get him riled up and I do down stays in the midst of it and whoa him.
We've done whistle training as well |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/29/2011 7:18 AM |
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What you are experiencing is obedience issues. It can be painted as anything we want - extreme prey drive, lack of hunt training - but the truth is - it's an obedience issue.
You would also need to assess his cooperation level. Some dogs just really are not cooperative. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 06/29/2011 7:21 AM |
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Thanks Pixie - how would I assess his cooperation level? I know he'll never be like a well bred dog who was trained from a pup but I would love to improve where he is at
thanks
Karen |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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MainCreeksRemi
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:824
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| 06/29/2011 7:36 AM |
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Karen-
I think getting him into a hunt training class would do wonders for him. Look for a trainer that you can get some feedback from, ask for some references and see if you can talk to the people who have used the trainer before.
I think getting him out into the exact areas that his listening is foggy is just what he needs. Exposure to the "issue", repetition of obedience & what is expected and from there you can use those tools you've learned in everyday experiences such as him hunting the yard.
We use whoa a lot in different things DAILY. Its become our go to command for Remi and he's responded very well to it. He has a very high prey drive too, and I think that at this point we would be frustrated if we hadn't gone through the training and unsure of what to do. I really think exposing them to these situations and repetition, repetition, repetition is what makes a strong connection and puts that trust in the dog.
Another thing my trainer insists on is reward. Always reward your dog for listening to the command and let them know you appreciate it.
I also still think you can train him, it doesn't matter he hasn't been taught or grasped this since he was a pup. He can still learn.  |
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Loved by Kelley:
Remi (7/3/2010) GSP
Morgan (5/17/2008) Choco Lab
Nallah (8/6/2006) Black Lab |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
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Posts:7862
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| 06/29/2011 8:37 AM |
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| I agree with pixie on this one. This dog is being very opportunistic because he can. After all he has been successful now for quite some time. I have one just like this and you have to amp up the obedience and focus exercises and never ever let him get away with anything. That means as a trainer/handler you have to be on your toes when training him so you can stop him before he even has a chance to fail. I know it is hard, but it will work. And in the end he will be awesome. This type of dog is hard to train, but once you get them working for you they are the best. Good luck!! |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7862
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| 06/29/2011 9:07 AM |
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| One thing I forgot to add, is this dog is not ready to be off leash/check cord until he had a reliable recall. I would go back to the basics on recall training. He needs to be proofed with tons of distractions and in many environments. You need to get to the point of being able to call this dog off of anything, first on the check cord and then with the ecollar and ultimately without the ecollar. I would not do this when working birds at all. This needs to be separate training. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 06/29/2011 2:55 PM |
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Thank you everyone for taking the time to give me some ideas.
It would be great if I could find a good pointing dog trainer around here. The guy I took him to was old school and had a limited approach BUT it was good for both Bugsy and I and it also confirmed what I thought and that he has incredible potential. Many of you experienced with GSP's no doubt would have been better able to work with him but I am proud of what we have been able to accomplish.
When we plucked him from the shelter all I wanted was a running buddy - I got much more LOL and because I got much more I know a lot more have done many things I never could have foreseen and clearly I have more to do.
And yes Bev people that hunt with dogs have always told me that although he is a 'handful' he would be awesome.
People that only want a pet love his personality but not the intensity on prey and energy level oh and size.
Things are more difficult with a dog of his size and power (29" and 105lbs)
The guy we did the bird work with nearly herniated trying to hold him with the check cord. he wound up letting him go and Bugsy opened the bird cage, the quail came out and he nailed it. The trainer looked at me and said well that hasn't happened before ha ha ha
So we'll up the obedience and work harder at getting and keeping his focus once stimulated
Fortunately the turtle finally moved on this morning - not that Bugsy has stopped checking for it |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7862
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| 06/29/2011 3:48 PM |
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| Just remember he will be opportunistic and will wait for that optimal moment when you loose attention to strike. So, you have to be on your toes and ready to stop him just as the idea pops in his head. It's hard and I struggle with that all the time with my boy, Ringo, but we are making progress. Good luck!! |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 06/29/2011 3:56 PM |
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Lol I know Bev you should see us do water retrieves, my eyes never leave him, meanwhile he is looking around while swimming back to me. Last week a heron flew over him and he considered leaping - you could see it clear as day.
He considers taking off in the water for something real non-stop, sigh.
Nothing with him -when outside - is simple or relaxing |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/29/2011 3:59 PM |
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This site is by a friend of mine, browse around
here is a description of cooperation
http://www.trader.co.nz/versatiledogs/articles/coop.htm |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7862
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| 06/29/2011 4:19 PM |
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| Excellent article on Cooperation pixie. Many people miss that critical ingredient and if you don't have cooperation then eventually you will be very disappointed in your dog whether you compete in the field, the obedience ring, or even in conformation. It is what I call team work in obedience. My dogs depend on me to be a good handler and in turn they anticipate and respond accordingly. Hard to describe, but when you have it, you know it. I also believe this is important in conformation. Think about the great dogs that you have seen in the breed ring and many of those dogs are outstanding examples of their breed, but what separates them from the other good dogs that are also good examples of the breed is that fluid team effort. The handler is on the end of the leash and is along for the ride, but the dog knows what is expected and goes for it. It is beautiful to see when it happens in whatever venue you compete in with your dog. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 06/29/2011 6:34 PM |
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Very interesting link pixie. I'd actually say he is mostly a cooperative dog. He is not the most biddable dog but from that description he is cooperative.
Here is an account of when we went to the Duke Canine Cognition center.
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/2011/02/bugsys-trip-to-duke-canine-cognition.html
You'll be horrified or laugh at his entrance but he did super at reading their non- verbals (according to them) and his continual attempts to find and/ or bring us the right things without being asked is a very typical behavior. Once focused he is INTENSE |
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 06/29/2011 7:19 PM |
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Food for thought:
can his lack of biddability be due to lack of trainer ability?
(sorry, don't mean to offend)
Many,many times the trainer is to blame
(don't ask how I know this LOL.)
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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kpwlee
Raleigh, NC
MH
Posts:998
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| 06/30/2011 11:27 AM |
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No offense taken, when he was young I questioned myself but now having been through classes, workshops, been around dog handlers, vastly experienced dog people (working sheep farm owners, hunt trialers and trainers), read extensively and tried darn near everything I am confident that it isn't LOL, with regard to his biddability at least. Having been around labs all my life who to me are super biddable I understand what it means.
Besides by choosing to detail the problem I have with him I expose myself to criticism - which is fine. I learn from criticism. I am a very level headed, calm individual who is trained as an educator and psychologist. When things don't work I look to change my approach.
Bugsy is a tough nut to crack but he is an amazing dog who - other than his obsessive hunting- causes no trouble. I will work every day I have with him to be a better owner for him.
I was thinking of an example of why I would say he is more cooperative than biddable. Every morning we go for a run. He knows when I use my asthma med (it makes a noise) that I'll be getting dressed to go. When he hears that he brings me my running shoes. I have never asked him to bring my shoes and he doesn't do it to please me, he does it to help me get ready to take him for a run.
The Duke study was interesting from the perspective of him trying to 'guess' what they wanted him to do (bringing them so many items) prior to being asked. Then once engaged in the study he read their non-verbal cues so well he knew what was expected prior to them asking. They said he was the best they had ever seen in that study at reading cues and were amazed that he needed no instruction as to what was expected at any point in the study.
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It's Bugsy's world...
http://dailyzoomie.blogspot.com/ |
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