Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 06/23/2011 12:49 PM |
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I see two things going on at the same time.
1)you are training whoa around the distraction of birds
2)you are encouraging search and point
Don't do both at the same time,pick one
If you have confidence in that the dogs will point,then you can hold off on the search and point and work on the whoa
At some point whoa will become a correction(pressure),so be careful about using it - make sure the dogs KNOW what you want so they can understand the correction(the pressure)
Personally, searching,pointing and holding point until flush is high on my list for a hunting dog, but given that you guys probably won't hunt you can jump into the obedience aspect of whoa. With this training you can easily pass AKC JH.
This pictures look good.
One way to know the dog is on scent is the 'birdie' tail - it's a tick,tick,tick that gets faster and faster and then stops! - POINT
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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| 06/23/2011 1:57 PM |
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| well we have done some minor whoa work in the past at home...the only reason why I did the whoa now was really just to get in front of the dog so I could end the search/point and then give them a treat....I guess I just really don't know how to end...The dogs both defiantly searched and found the bird and they did point....both did good too cuz when they pointed they didn't do the wiggle tail, they actually froze....my understanding with the point is they don't necessarily have to pick up a leg or it doesn't have to be a front leg either...it is more how their nose points to the bird and the tail stands out....or am I totally wrong on that... |
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DesertRoseKennel
MH
Posts:1033
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| 06/23/2011 3:57 PM |
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Another thought - bird dogs don't need a reward when they point a bird. The bird itself is enough and I personally wouldn't add the distraction of a treat.
I really highly recommend you check out Perfect Start before you do a lot more work with birds.
Jean |
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"Our dogs are bred to be champion hunters who sleep on the bed"
www.desertrosekennel.com |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 06/23/2011 5:15 PM |
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| Ditto what Jean said. I don't even take treats with me when we do bird work. Also, I can't agree more with Jean about Perfect Start. It will help you so much and you can take it as far as you want to. It is also very easy to do for us beginners, it will give you a way to end the exercises, etc. It is worth the $$s. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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| 06/23/2011 5:52 PM |
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Yes, cut out the treats.  There's enough of a reward in getting to see and point the birds.
Phyllis and brother Ollie and the gang |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 06/23/2011 7:35 PM |
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| End by picking up the bird and releasing the dog to continue the search. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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| 06/23/2011 8:31 PM |
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| I was wondering what the reward was cuz they don't get to retrieve and actually get the bird at this point...but if just pointing and seeing it is good I am fine with that cuz the dogs really could care less about the treats....as far as them leaving to go find another bird, well that is where I need work...though we only had one bird out there....I am not sure what the exercise is called but I think mine need to learn to go out on multiple retrieves so they can figure out the whole find it or get it and know that when I say it they need to forget the current one and go to the next....I got these birds really just to see if they would use their nose right and to remind them what birds are...they both saw wings as pups before I got them home....I have to say I was pretty pleased that at least Striker used his nose....they both did do a point too... |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 06/24/2011 4:31 AM |
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Your set up is too artificial.
You need to use to larger land with more cover.
If the birds are flightless, then you can place them 1/2way into the area on one side then at the end on the other side.
This will give the dogs some leg stretching room and the opportunity to use their nose and get some distance from you. |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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| 06/24/2011 5:19 AM |
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yeah I knew at the house I didn't have enough tall grasses or land, I just wanted to do it where I had some control first....the next time will be at my parents or brothers (he just bought a house that had been in foreclosure so 5 acres of grass taller than me, no way for the dogs to use eyes then all nose)....
the birds can definitely fly lost one cuz the string came untied....down to 1 pigeon.... |
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Shelley
Bristol, UK
MH
Posts:704
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| 06/24/2011 2:38 PM |
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I am by no means an expert but I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve by this?
In the UK we do not get infront of the dog - the aim of all training is for the bird to be flushed and then be able to be shot. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 06/24/2011 2:42 PM |
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| Shelley - At least for a hunt test what typically happens is the dog finds and points the bird and then the handler moves in and flushes the bird which is typically in front of the dog. So I just assumed that was what she was emulating. Later in training we add in capping a starter pistol when the bird flushes. More advanced you actual shoot the bird and send the dog to retrieve. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 06/24/2011 2:45 PM |
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Posted By Shelley on 06/24/2011 2:38 PM
I am by no means an expert but I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve by this?
In the UK we do not get infront of the dog - the aim of all training is for the bird to be flushed and then be able to be shot.
Shelley here in the states we do not want our dogs to do the flush on the bird we as the handler do the flushing. :0) Hope that helps with why the person would go in front of the dog. :0)
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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| 06/24/2011 3:31 PM |
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Thanks, Beth. I was just about to say the same. Shelley, in the US the continental pointing breed dogs do not flush game, they hold point until the bird is flushed and then shot by the hunter/handler/gunner depending on which venue you are working in.
The purpose of the pigeons/pigeon poles is to introduce the dogs to birds and birdwork. Optimally, we'd like to see a higher tail (but that may be because there isn't much scent or the dogs are not yet into it) and when you are just beginning training you may want to stylize the tail, and work more on technique. Since Marcia is learning this along with the dogs, its kind of like trying to carve a pumpkin with one hand tied behind your back. Trial and error and hopefully some local experienced folks (Adam comes to mind) who can help out too.
Phyllis and the VERY VERY HOT Furtribe..how can it be 104 at 3:30 pm ugh! |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 06/24/2011 3:43 PM |
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I think the tails look OK
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 06/24/2011 4:58 PM |
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| With my dogs the tails will flag when they pick up scent and get faster and faster until they zero in on the bird, then they freeze the tail in the up position. I suspect the tails are not as high because the dogs aren't really birdy yet. With Halo, who I have never introduced to the bird game, she will hold her tail in a similar fashion. I plan on getting Halo ready to get her JH this next year. We will be starting late, but when she figures out the game I suspect she will be more bird crazy than either Ringo or Fauna. I also plan on finishing up Fauna's JH this next season as she only needs two more legs. Then at some point I have to get serious about Seniors for both Ringo and Fauna. Just need to find the extra time to do all the doggy things I like to do. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3130
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| 06/25/2011 5:53 AM |
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ditto what they said about getting in front or at least that is what I assumed when doing it...
this was more my practice run in a much controlled area...the next time I do it I am hoping they get more birdy and their tails do their thing, lol! Actually when they see stuff outside when they are in Blitz gets his tail up....however that is sight and not smell....when Striker had his nose to the ground his tail was twitching around but more straight out than up.... |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 06/27/2011 5:24 AM |
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Here is a picture of Bregon pointing on Saturday.
You can see his tail is 9:00 and won't go higher then 10:00 - Haiko's will not go higher then 11:00,generally around 10:00,tho
I prefer this to a higher tail and this is typical of european breeding - even in Pointers.
I added in a search he did that led up to the point picture above but the camera died before the point and I was only able to take a picture of it.
It should be the first video(hope this works)
Bear in mind that this is a small area ,dense, 2-3' high and this is his stomping grounds for 10 hours a day, 2 days a week and by the time of this video he has already searched and stomped this area for a few hours
not sure how noticable it is but at about 51 seconds hebriefly points and is steady to the flush of song birds
http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b178/sheeba_/dog%20training%20video/
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7835
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| 06/27/2011 8:28 AM |
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Here are some pictures of my girl Fauna and Ringo on point. This is how I typically see shorthari tails in the Hunt Tests that I compete in with my dogs.
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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| 06/28/2011 5:25 PM |
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Thank you, Bev. That's what we expect too.
Phyllis and the Singltrak Furtribe |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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