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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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| 01/27/2008 8:47 PM |
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I'm sorry that you feel that way, Beth. There have been a great many knowledgeable people who have written you on the bulletin board attempting to provide more insight into problems. You seem to ignore all but those who agree with you. That's too bad, and perhaps that is the reason behind your seeming frustration.
If you think about it, without the breed standard, no matter how faulty it is...I can show you a Liver Headed Flugelhound, call it a GSP and bingo, bango...there's a GSP. Standards were written to be kept and improved upon, not to argue with and go away mad. Sorry, guys, but there's a reason those faults and DQ's were written into the standard (and its a BREED standard, not just a conformation standard, btw). Light eyes can present problems to a dog in the field. A dog that's not put together correctly can't last as long hunting as one that has good layback and a good rear. He needs adequate angulation, front and rear and he needs to be sound of body and mind. We should strive to improve upon what we are producing, whether it is a better shoulder, a darker eye or more biddability in the field. It goes without saying that our kids should be able to do what they were originally bred to do.
Now, back to that Breed Standard. Well, the Viszla Club of America uses their Breed Standard in a very different way. They examine their field dogs prior to the dog's running at their FT National for adherence to the standard, measure for Height disqualifications, color variations, etc. Could our GSPCA do that? Would they? You'd have to ask someone far more experienced in field training and trialing than I. Maybe Terry or CR or Trey can shed some light on this.
Phyllis
www.singltrakshorthairs.com |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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Trey
SW Iowa
MH
Posts:516
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| 01/27/2008 9:00 PM |
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Good post Ken.
Moose the problem with not worrying about the little things, like ears and such is that after about 3 generations of not caring, they start to look not like shorthairs.
The best history book on the breed is a German book writen by Seiger, there was an agruement even during development, some wanted to set 'type' and some wanted to just keep going function to form. They got it figured out pretty well, I think. I have been happy with the results of their work.
The reason for the standard is so the dogs will be built in a way that lets them complete their work, even if it means retrieving heavy geese, or taken down a deer. And, so you can always look at a dog (hopefully) and say "That is a German Shorthair'
Off to a meeting inFL, but have enjoyed the conversation. |
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zodiakgsps
NW PA
MH
Posts:1059
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| 01/27/2008 9:39 PM |
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Ken, since by AKC standards, show & field do not "require" each other, for the lack of a better term, no a show DQ (unless for aggression) does not affect it's ability to run field events. Here are the show DQ/excusal rules:
A dog that is disqualified by a judge for attacking a person in the ring, disqualified by an Event Committee for attacking and injuring a person or a dog, or that is disqualified by a judge for a change in its appearance by artificial means, is ineligible to compete in any AKC events.
If a dog is disqualified under the Breed Standard (height, weight, dentition, etc.), or if a male has been disqualified for not having two normal descended testicles, the dog may continue to compete. However, if three separate judges disqualify the dog for the same reason, the dog is ineligible for AKC conformation competition or for reinstatement. (Dogs disqualified by breed standard can continue to compete in AKC companion events and certain AKC performance events.)
As to nose color, yes I see your point, where the standard states dark eyes preferred & wall eyes/china eyes a DQ, it only states brown for nose color. I think it is a given though that this includes most shades since it goes on to say a spotted nose isn't desirable and a flesh colored nose is a DQ.
I'm not sure this helps much, as I think what you are asking about is a conformational standard for GSPS competing in the field?? Or how (who could) to bring about that they do "require" each other?????
BTW...how are those pups coming along you had at the PA Britt grounds last year????
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 01/27/2008 10:06 PM |
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I can compare dog breed stards to horse breed standards. In every breed of horse there is a "foundation" bred horse and a non foundation bred horse. The foundation bred horses do have a difference in their "standard" of how they are built and look. Does this mean they are less of that breed of horse than another that is not a foundation horse? To me what a breed is is the blood that is in that breed. An Appaloosa horse is not a horse of color but a horse that has the Appaloosa blood. I believe same can go for any breed of dog. Does this make a foundation horse or dog any better than the "new line" of breeding? Who makes those decisions? I agree with breeding to improve the breed but what we today feel improves the breed may or may not have been in line with what the founders of the breed had in mind and it may or may not be in line with what the future generations feel a GSP should be. My GSP's do meet standard as closley as their breeders could get to it. But this is not what makes them a GSP. What makes them a GSP is that they have the GSP blood.
I am totaly ok with other people having different points of view than I do. That is what makes life so interesting. I am not saying I am right or wrong it is just my point of view.
I am sorry if any of you think I ignore what people say to me on this message board. I have my points of view on something and if someone doesn't agree with me I am very open to talking to them about it and understanding why they feel the way they do and MANY times I LEARN from them and then that changes how I feel because I then understand why something is the way it is. For example I never though that bite was really that big of a deal in conformation until I was able to talk to others about it and voice my opinion with out getting shunned for it. Those who I was able to talk to are very great mentors that I hold dear to me and will go to for any advice or questions. They brought to light why bite is so big of a deal and to my amazement none of what they started off telling me had to do with the function in the field. They were truly concerned about their dogs health and their ability to process and chew food first and foremost and then they turned to the hunting aspect of it. This is the type of conversation I like to see as it does bring to light something for me to LEARN.
For example again I never questioned why the standard had the eye color it does but now that is has been brought up I would like to have someone expand for me on this quote written by Phyllis:
"Light eyes can present problems to a dog in the field"
Why is this? Is there some place I can read about the studies that have been done on this so I can understand this and why I should strive hole heartedly to get the darker eyes in my dogs for breeding?
I guess I just am not the type of person who reads a standard and says "OK sounds good to me". I am the type of person that says "Ok, but how/why is it that way and how does it help my dogs function in the field and in other canine sports"
I think the problem with the standard is the way it is worded. There are so many things that are left wide open for someone to think "Oh this is what that means" I think it would be great to have a possible way for the standard to have highlighted words such as EYES or EARS or TAIL that you can click on and read the history behind why that standard was chosen and how it helps the health and well being of the dog.
I hope this makes some sense...... |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 9:33 AM |
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Hi Phyllis,
Have I missed something? I am at a disatvantage in that I do not know people by their first name unless they identify themselves in their note. Who is Beth?
In your post you make the statement "Light eyes can present problems to a dog in the field." I have herd this said before but can find no documentation that supports this premmis. Would you please point me toward that information.
An underlying assumption in a lot of the posts so far is that the breed standard is only for the show ring. Yet no one has pointed me to anything that says that. Until that point in time, when I read the standard and see a statement that " China or wall eyes are to be disqualified." I keep finding myself asking "What does that mean?" Is it trying to say that of those things that comprize the set called "GSP" the fact of disqualification removes one from that set.
In these discussions I am not looking for proposals of things that could be changed. I am more interested in discussions that explain the standard as it is. These discussions may lead to changes but that is not my primary intent. |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 10:19 AM |
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Hi Zodiakgsps,
I am sorry but Ihave to pick at some of your statements. First you state "...since by AKC standards, show & field do not "require" each other, for the lack of a better term, no a show DQ (unless for aggression) does not affect it's ability to run field events." Yet the second bullet ends with "(Dogs disqualified by breed standard can continue to compete in AKC companion events and certain AKC performance events.)" Until I can find where "certain AKC performance events" is further stated I would not know if I am impacted if I had such a dog. I do agree that there is nothing in the performace area that can result in disqualification because of non-conformance to the breed standard. However, if one were to take the approach that says the standard defines what is a GSP then anything that disqualifies results in something that is not a GSP. If it is not a GSP then it is not ellagable to enter those things open to GSP's. This begs the issue of what is registered as GSP and what meets the standard of GSP.
As for the puppies...I am looking forward to this Spring to see how many of the puppies show up in events. As for the female I kept she is entered in a Walking Field Trial in NJ at the end of Feb. She is very young but I do it as a levelset thing. I see her run with the adult dogs I have and like what I see. This is my way of seeing how she fairs against strangers and horses so I get a feel for what has to be worked on. Plus I just want to get out. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 01/28/2008 10:37 AM |
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If everyone would consider what the founders of the breed developed the breed to accomplish, all your questions will be answered. It is looking at show dogs and only conformation that is throwing most off about why this and why that.
Every aspect of the standard is effective at producing as perfect a hunter as possible.How a judge judges is based on their perspective of twhat hey believe the standard means and their view of what they want in the breed.
An AKC show is a competition.Isn't better to hold the dogs,individually, to the standard instead of against each other?Meaning - if all the dogs that showed up that day are crap, one of those crappy dogs will win that day.And this accomplishes what?
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 10:56 AM |
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Hi Moose1,
I always cringe when I use an analogy. I have heard the line of thought with respect to "blood". Could never get a good difinition as to what it means. If I were to place in front of you several vials of blood, by looking at them you would be hard pressed to identify what they came from.
With respect to your comments on bite. That is exactly the kind of conversation I wish we could get to occur here. By so doing (capturing the disscussion in writen words) it is then available to those who come along later.
With respect to "Light eyes"...I too hope we get pointed to documentation that supports the premise stated earlier in the forum.
And last... The writen word is a very powerful tool. By the choice of words one can convey many things. However, when one starts to readin things that are not stated or if the words chosen have multiple meanings a lot of unintended things happen. The idea of having the standard with links to further supporting explanation is great but I am not volunteering to do that. |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 11:56 AM |
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Hi Francine,
What the founding fathers developed the breed to accomplish and what it does today are two different things. That is because the "perfect hunter" is in the eye of the beholder. For instance where in the standard (developed by the founding fathers) does it say the dog must point?
As to the comments on judging I agree that it ends up being the judges opinion. And yes what is to one person crap is treasure to another. I do think though that the judge has the ability to withold any placement that will lead to points if that judge feels what was presented for judgment is not worthy of the title for which points are given. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 01/28/2008 12:22 PM |
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Ken,
the standard is not about the abilities of the breed but what the breed needs to look like in order to effectively perform it's abilities.
The breed was developed purley as a hunting breed out of necessity.At any test in the hunting world nose,search pointing,ect is judged.There is a standrad for abilities during the tests.
Show dogs tend to be over-angulated. It may look nice but it will hardly do in the field, day in and day out.After the first hour or so an over-angulated dog will tire.The breed was developed to work at a gallop and there is no way to do this in the showring.When a dog is at a gallop you can see more clearly how it is put together.One reason I would like to see more show dogs in the field is to assess the nose and to bring the breed back to proper conformation.Not that all show dogs or breeders are at fault in this.
I see more and more many breeders and lines that are looking like they can hunt all day and do a good job of it.
Unfortunatly, there are show types and field types.A person just needs to know what they want in each type.
Francine
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 01/28/2008 12:28 PM |
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Ken, one more thing,
DKs are still bred today to do what the founding fathers invisioned.
The standards are high in both performance and conformation.
IMO, if a person wants a dog that is as close to the founding father's ideals, then a DK is what they want.The breeding standard for the DK includes mental balance,conformation,ability and health.And will be stamped unbreedable on it's pedigree for all to see.It is not a perfect system but it tries to cover every aspect of continuing the breed standard.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MOOSE1
Fruitport, MI
MH
Posts:1789
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| 01/28/2008 1:10 PM |
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Ken-
What I mean by my dog being a GSP because it is in their blood means that their DNA would go back to GSP's. To literaly take vials of blood is what seems to be a bit over the top of analogy but hey that is cool with me. My Appaloosa horse are Appaloosas because their DNA goes back to Appaloosas. I would love to be able to dig deeper into the standard as well. I want to understand the standard and what it really means as this will only help improve what I know about the breed and what I am looking for in a good dog. |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified
Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested
Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested
Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo
Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 01/28/2008 1:35 PM |
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Every GSP will trace back to the German dogs.What makes the GSP different is the breeding regualtions.GSPs can be bred however the owner wants.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MegC
Ellensburg, WA
MH
Posts:989
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| 01/28/2008 1:45 PM |
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...The breed was developed to work at a gallop and there is no way to do this in the showring.When a dog is at a gallop you can see more clearly how it is put together.One reason I would like to see more show dogs in the field is to assess the nose and to bring the breed back to proper conformation.Not that all show dogs or breeders are at fault in this....
I'd see you this and raise you one: there's a lot more to field performance than just build. There's important stuff like lung capacity, oxygen uptake, lactic acid tolerance, etc etc etc that cannot be seen with the eye.
And as I've posted here before, after hanging out with working stock of serveral breeds for a few years, I'm really amazed at what gets put up in the show ring. The shoulder blade up through the withers in the ring often doesn't rotate like I'm seeing in what working dog people consider a 'good moving dog'. I'll use Rogan to illustrate because I have a couple really dramatic photos... first we have Rogan in left lead here. Note how far his left elbow is back.
Rogan in left lead again below (behind Dulcie). Note how far his right elbow is forward here.
When dogs like him are just milling around relaxed, even then you'll notice on the top of the whithers how much the scapulas slide by each other. I jokingly call this 'the chicken wing effect', but all the most mechanically efficient dogs I've seen have it.
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Megan
+ Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar)
Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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bruns333
Central Ohio
MH
Posts:383
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| 01/28/2008 3:02 PM |
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This is good stuff, can you show more shots of angulation and movement? I thought a lot of front shoulder angle would help a dog cover more ground with each step. I can see if you get too much angle it could lead to a dog not having a sound base(front and rear). Rear angle seems different in that too much makes a shorthair stand and move like a show German Shepheard. I think the imprortance of really being put together correctly is not tested much. How often is a gsp asked to run hard all day? Cover, birds, desire, health, nutrition, and even what the dog is working for can(fast hunter, slow hunter, horse hunter) dictate if it can function all day. Can some of the AA dog folks weigh in as to how important is it for their dogs to be well built versus the all around abilities for it to find, point, and retrieve game. The national champion dogs from each year are they the best built ones? I don't know. Those folks that know could you jump in and add your thoughts.
Matt |
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Where temperament means performance
http://silverbulletshorthairs.com/
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=721 R.I.P Trego 6-1-03 to 10-13-10
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=941
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=3626 |
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zodiakgsps
NW PA
MH
Posts:1059
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| 01/28/2008 3:10 PM |
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Posted By Ken Lynch on 01/28/2008 10:19 AM
Hi Zodiakgsps,
I am sorry but Ihave to pick at some of your statements. First you state "...since by AKC standards, show & field do not "require" each other, for the lack of a better term, no a show DQ (unless for aggression) does not affect it's ability to run field events." Yet the second bullet ends with "(Dogs disqualified by breed standard can continue to compete in AKC companion events and certain AKC performance events.)" Until I can find where "certain AKC performance events" is further stated I would not know if I am impacted if I had such a dog. I do agree that there is nothing in the performace area that can result in disqualification because of non-conformance to the breed standard.
Ken, this was taken directly from the guidelines for show judging, therefore meaning they are barred from show & not other venues. Sorry, I should have stated that to make it clear. AKC companion events are agility, obedience, etc. Performance including field of course and since no breed standard conformationally is required for field trials, I would then safely assume it is not affected by the show DQ. You can always e-mail the AKC performance events dept for clarification of this, I'm sure they can answer these questions much better than I.
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4448
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| 01/28/2008 3:29 PM |
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Meg,
high withers are preferred by the Germans.A slight roach is not bad either.From what I have noticed, dogs with a slight roach are pretty fast.
Wish I had pictures of Haiko in high gear,he looks like your dogs.I'll look thru my pic to see if I have any to post.
Everything the originators of the breed desired in the breed was designed for hunting all day on all types of game.They were also concerned with the expression of the dog. Which is why they do not like light eyes.They concerned themselves with the overall dog, they did not concentrate soley on build,but experssion of the head.
Francine |
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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singltrak
Las Cruces, NM
MH
Posts:1149
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| 01/28/2008 4:03 PM |
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Thanks, Francine. On the light eye comments, sometime back in what was then the GSP Journal or perhaps Shorthair, there was an article written regarding breeding for type. There were various mentions of eye color, up to and including comparing yellow, "headlight" eyes, walleyes, etc., to those of a Walleyed Pike. Now, those of you from fishing backgrounds know that Walleye are usually found fairly deep, this because they do not function as well in top waters due to the enhanced sunlight. It was felt by the writer that there were similarities in those and in light eyed field dogs. I've also read something fairly recently regarding Siberian Huskies on snow and how darker eyed dogs seem to have a better functionality. Perhaps Meg can give us an idea with her guys as to what seems to be most functional, I'll keep hunting for that article also and get back to you on this one.
Phyllis |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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Ken Lynch
Hudson Valley in NY
MH
Posts:201
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| 01/28/2008 4:16 PM |
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Hi Frencine,
"the standard is not about the abilities of the breed but what the breed needs to look like in order to effectively perform it's abilities."
I would agree with you if the standard used words like "should be". However, it is always stated "is". For instance "The head is clean-cut, is neither too light nor too heavy, and is in proper proportion to the body."
As for DKs I will have to check it out. As we already know GSPCA has no standard for "Breeding". |
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Jodi
Tampa, Florida
MH
Posts:296
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| 01/28/2008 4:20 PM |
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I am confused about this light eye issue. I think my Jackson has lighter eyes than some of the GSPs on this site. How do you determine if they are wall eye or china eyed? I notice as he gets older they have been darkening up a bit. They are not super light (sometimes they appear lighter in pics due to flash and his dark coloring....) |
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