Ken Lynch Hudson Valley in NY
 MH Posts:201


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| 01/25/2008 7:27 PM |
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OK, here goes. Where does one go to get into a technical discussion on the "GSP Breed Standard"? Also, who, by consensise is considered to be the Breed Standard Exegete? |
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Marie Wisconsin
 MH Posts:2721


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| 01/25/2008 8:23 PM |
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| http://www.akc.org/index.cfm?nav_area=homepage Here is the AKC web link and I think it is they who determines GSP breed standards |
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Marie and Rocky, a tall, high energy GSP http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Annette_Merryfield/100_0285.jpg?t=1287205231 |
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Ken Lynch Hudson Valley in NY
 MH Posts:201


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| 01/25/2008 8:47 PM |
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My question goes to who has the difinitive interpretation of the breed standard. Is it AKC or GSPCA? Not only that, but who with in the respective organization is concidered the expert on the interpretation of the words within the standard? |
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Trey SW Iowa
 MH Posts:516

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| 01/25/2008 10:09 PM |
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| The breed parent club controls the standard, and in that, the members have to vote whenever there is a change made. Most are based on the country of origin, or FCI Standard. I believe in the gs, the only differnce is size, the FCI allows one more inch before it is penalized. I havne't read them in a long time, In the Burns book there is a good comparison of the three, FCI, American and English. |
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KDTsGSPs MI
 MH Posts:206


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| 01/26/2008 8:45 AM |
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| The GSPCA has final say over the standard & submits it to AKC if there are any new things that have been changed such as them now wanting to allow the black GSPs which any members of the GSPCA should have voted on recently. |
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Rebecca KDTs GSPs where the history making GSP (AM/CAN CH, UKC UWPS UWPCHX GRCH KDT's Blazin' Bleugras JH RN CGC) lives! The 1st GSP to ever get weight pull titles! |
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Ken Lynch Hudson Valley in NY
 MH Posts:201


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| 01/26/2008 9:49 AM |
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OK, here goes. Where does one go to get into a technical discussion on the "GSP Breed Standard"? Also, who, by consensus is considered to be the Breed Standard Exegete? The discussion is not so much to cause a change to the standard but rather get a further understanding of the words that already exist. Any discussion as to the meaning of the words which has no exegete involved only leads to a multitude of opinions. I am reluctant to pose the actual questions until I can find the Breed Standard Exegete. |
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singltrak Las Cruces, NM
 MH Posts:1149


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| 01/26/2008 12:08 PM |
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Ken, I doubt you could find any one person or entity who would qualify as the Breed Standard Exegete. By nature, GSPs and their owners vary differently in likes, dislikes and what is correct (to the standard, iow) or incorrect. You can read through these pages and see many examples of this, what some say are fantastic animals others wouldn't want to feed. We have only the GSPCA Breed Standard (developed many years ago by several well founded in the breed) to go by, and to try and improve upon our own breeding to that standard. Even that changes from venue to venue, and from owner to owner. Personally, I doubt this forum is the place to pose your question but that's mho. Phyllis and the furtribe |
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Look to the Past, Breed for the Future |
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Trey SW Iowa
 MH Posts:516

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| 01/26/2008 1:22 PM |
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What Phyllis said. Even in the show ring, where they are judged against the 'standard', the one making the judgement is the Exegete, that day in that ring. I think everyone inturprets it in there own way, some think great movement means more then perfect ear lenght. Wow, sorry for the bad spelling today! |
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Ken Lynch Hudson Valley in NY
 MH Posts:201


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| 01/26/2008 4:35 PM |
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I agree that owners vary differently in likes and dislikes. Also because of the versatility of the GSP there are a multitude of venues which they participate in. And yes even when discussing the standard with its terms of faulted or penalized or disqualified for various components that comprise the GSP you can end up with opinions as to weather the sum of all the parts results in correct or incorrect. I would also assert that when in the ring a Judge is not giving a critical interpretation of a text but rather forming an opinion as to the total sum of all the parts (as described in the standard) for each individual in the ring and then choosing the best one present and judged that day as the winner. I would say each judge gives more or less credence to the different parts of the standard as a function of their likes or dislikes. However I can also see Trey’s point of view that the judge in the ring and making a judgment is in essence acting as and exegete because of the ultimate authority on the final decision which cannot be challenged. What if two different judges come out different holes? What is black? What is brown? If a dog is disqualified what does that mean? |
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Trey SW Iowa
 MH Posts:516

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| 01/26/2008 10:41 PM |
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What if two different judges come out different holes? This happens every weekend, look at the results from Sat and Sunday at any given show, very often with the same dogs in the ring, the placements will be very different. What is black? What is brown? A black dog has black nose leather and pads, a brown dog has brown (I am assuming what the deciding factor is in very dark colored liver) A black dog cannot have a brown nose. DQ's in the breed, In America (AKC) A dog with any area of black, red,orange, lemon or tan. Extreme over shot or undershot jaw. Flesh colored nose. China or wall eyes. I have seen and should have seen it more that they as disqualified for being spooks. The last akc show I was at, three pups from the same litter in the puppy class, scared of their own shadow and anything else that moved, one one the class, the next day a judge with common scense threw them all out. There are many people on this board with more show expierence then me can help out more with this one. |
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Ken Lynch Hudson Valley in NY
 MH Posts:201


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| 01/27/2008 7:45 AM |
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To me it is a given that no two judges are alike. When entering an event you are asking for their opinion and that is what you get, their opinion. As to Black or Brown, I would argue that you cannot use the term to define the term. I do not disagree with the statement that a black dog has a black nose and a brown dog has a brown nose. However, I got there not from reading the standard but by reading articles on genetics. The reason I was looking for an exegete was to understand the subtlety of why the term “Brown” is used in the standard when describing the eye and the nose. Yet when describing the coat the term “Liver” is used. I understand those things within the standard that result in disqualification. What I am asking is having been disqualified what does it mean? If you are telling me that it simply means you are not eligible to be in the show ring, I would then ask what business does it have in the standard since the standard is a description of what a German Shorthaired Pointer is. |
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Trey SW Iowa
 MH Posts:516

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| 01/27/2008 8:24 AM |
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I guess I just don't see a differenct in using brown and or liver, and I have no idea why they use the two different terms in the standard. Neither is black. And I believe it says any shade of liver? What does it mean when you get dq'ed, well, I know someone with a ch border collie that was dqed for having only one testicle (I myself would have considered him monorchid), he had one large testicle and if you felt the other you had to dig long and hard on it. Only one judge ever noticed it and dqed him, they continued to show the dog and he finished his CH. Someone from the show crowed will have to answer that one, I have no idea what the written rule is on it. "What I am asking is having been disqualified what does it mean? If you are telling me that it simply means you are not eligible to be in the show ring, I would then ask what business does it have in the standard since the standard is a description of what a German Shorthaired Pointer is." I don't understand the question? |
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Ken Lynch Hudson Valley in NY
 MH Posts:201


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| 01/27/2008 9:37 AM |
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The standard does not use the word shade anyplace in the text. I do not view the German Shorthaired Pointer Breed Standard simply and only as a guideline for the showring judge to use. I guess we have to step back and ask the question "Who is the intended audiance of the German Shorthaired Pointer Breed Standard"? |
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Almost Heaven GSP Springfield, WV
 MH Posts:731


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| 01/27/2008 3:37 PM |
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Ken, You could contact the GSPCA Judges Education. I believe that would be Betsy Yates. Mind you, she is Judges Ed. for the Show Ring, meaning Conformation not performance. There is no Performance Standard written for the Breed that I'm aware of, but it sounds like it is the Conformation that you are curious about. Since she is the one educating the Judges on what is or is not acceptable and what is to be looked for, I think IMHO that she does qualify as the Exegete you are seeking. Unlike Phyllis and Trey; I would be interested in what your question is. |
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Money will buy a fine dog, but only kindness will make him wag his tail.
Bruce Shaffer Almost Heaven GSP's
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Ken Lynch Hudson Valley in NY
 MH Posts:201


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| 01/27/2008 5:29 PM |
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| I have asked several questions so far to which I have not gotten an answer. The last one was "Who is the intended audiance of the German Shorthaired Pointer Breed Standard"? No one has steped forward and asserted that it applies to the conformation ring only. Several people have given examples where within the conformation ring this or that has happened. But no one has pointed to any statement which limits where the standard applies. The definition of "Disqualify" 3rd meaning in Webster's New Colleget Dictionary 8th edition is (to make ineligible for a prize or for further competition because of violations of the rules). If the German Shorthaired Pointer Breed Standard is for more than the conformation ring (if it is a discription of what a German Shorthaired Pointer is) then for instance if a dog has "wall eyes" (what ever that is) then is the dog truly a GSP? If not, that dog would then not be able to compete in field trials (for point breeds) or hunt tests (for pointing breeds) because it is not a GSP. |
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MegC Ellensburg, WA
 MH Posts:989


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| 01/27/2008 6:07 PM |
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If I were elected Queen of the Universe one night, you'd all wake up to find GSPs being defined first by what they do and how well they do it, and ONLY then racked and stacked by their various visible merits. And those visible merits would be based on FUNCTION FIRST.
And all children would be loved and wanted, and the Jerry Springer people would actually turn their brain on, and wars would be replaced with calm adult discussion and reason, and chocolate would be non fattening. But... until then.... |
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Megan + Dulcie (Lehmschlog's The Right Spot) + Rogan (Lehmschlog's BR Rogan) + Anya (Lehmschlog's Anya O Conchobar) Intro to harness sport/mushing- start here! |
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Ken Lynch Hudson Valley in NY
 MH Posts:201


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| 01/27/2008 6:26 PM |
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| This is going to get confusing because we are begining to get several threads of thought going here. I had also asked about the use of the words "brown" and "liver" in the standard. There is a qualification of the word brown when used to discribe the color of the eye. That qualifyer is "deep". With respect of the use "brown" when explaining the color of the nose it is unqualified. The use of "liver" in explaining the color of the coat is also unqualified. If you look in Webster's New Colleget Dictionary 8th edition "brown" is defined as (1st meaning "any of a group of colors between red and yellow in hue. of medium to low lightness, and of moderate to low saturation"). If you look in Webster's New Colleget Dictionary 8th edition "liver" is defined as (4th meaning "a grayish redish brown -- called also liver brown, liver maroon). If one chases down the definitions of the words used to define words I believe you end up in a tighter area than what is accepted today. If I am right, then where do we go from here? |
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Ken Lynch Hudson Valley in NY
 MH Posts:201


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| 01/27/2008 6:40 PM |
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Hi Megan, I feel like Don Quixote. But I do this as fun not malice. I find it interesting that no one in this discussion has dragged me back into history relative to what the originators of this breed were trying to develope and how they went about selecting those they considered worthy of going forward with and those they deemed inferior. When you become Queen of the Universe me thinks you would end up with a system similar to what the originators of the breed had. As to Jerry Springer and chocolate all I can say is everything in moderation. Thanks for joining the discussion. |
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MOOSE1 Fruitport, MI
 MH Posts:1789


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| 01/27/2008 6:57 PM |
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| I would love to join the convo but I have been drug through the mud several times on my thoughts about the standard. Which is to me this- Does it REALLY matter if the dogs ears are a certian hight above their eyes, does it really matter how long the tail is 2/3 or 2/5...etc. do these small things like the angle of the brow and how it meets the muzzle help or hinder a dog when they are doing what they have been bred to do? To me it is function before form but wow the nasyt PM's that come out of comments like that are crazy! I have yet to change my opinion on it but hey that is why I am not going to get into the middle of it. I do agree that a dog needs to be built well and strong for the fuild but some of the small nitty gritty details are a bit over the top for me who doesn't really focus a lot on the show ring. JMO |
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Rajah-APBT- USUV UMJCH Flying High Rajah-TDI Certified Phoenix-GSP- USJCH UWP GRCH BNJ Shooters Rising Phoenix-CGC Tested Cody- GSP- AKC/CKC CH UKC UWP GRCH Legacyk n Estate Sunray Minor FDJ CGC Tested Tucson-UJJ CH Legacyk FlwrCrk The Old Peublo Rumor-UMJ URO1 GRCH BNJ Rumor Has It-RN RD CGC NA II
www.ezydog.com |
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Ken Lynch Hudson Valley in NY
 MH Posts:201


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| 01/27/2008 8:38 PM |
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Hi Moose1, I am begining to have fun. One does not get into these discussions if one has a thin skin. I can see your point of view if you start from the premiss that you do not care if the dog is a lab, delmation, boxer or whatever as long as it does what the GSP was bred to do (and what is that?). When the founding fathers first developed the breed they made these minutia definitions to set forth what they were invisioning the dog should look like. Your approch is kind of like saying a horse is breed for riding or working (pulling a wagon, or whatever). But lets not concern ourselves with what a horse looks like. As long as we can ride it or have it pull a wagon or whatever it is exceptable to be called a horse. An elephant or a mule would fit within the new way of looking at things. I believe you like the looks and temperment of the GSP as it is. Otherwise you would not own one or be involved on this forum. The founding fathers were trying to perfect a distintive look in addition to stated performance. It is the sum of the two parts that make a GSP as opposed to a Weim, Vizsla etc. That is why it is necessary to pay attention to all parts of the standard. By the way since the GSP was developed to be such a versital dog that is why you find no mention of senting ability, staunchness on point, tracking ability, swiming ability, etc. It is all covered by a simple statements of "The German Shorthaired Pointer is a versatile hunter, an all-purpose gun dog capable of high performance in field and water" and "The Shorthair is friendly, intelligent, and willing to please". The intellegence and willingness to please then allow you to shape the performance of the GSP into any venue you wish to persue. I do thank you for voicing your opinion. |
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