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wisconsinative
JH
Posts:22
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| 02/09/2011 9:01 AM |
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So we've been having a bit of trouble with Isa trying to one-up our youngest in the pack by growling. It doesn't seem to be a very threatening growl, and occurs maybe once every other day. We are always within 10' when she is with our youngest - so we correct her and have our 4 year old immediately correct her also and submit by laying on her side... which she does... immediately. She seems to know that the growling is unacceptable without us even correcting her, and just submits right away.
Today when it happened Isa had a bone, which I usually don't let her have when my 4 year old is around but I think it was hidden under something and she got to it. My 4 year old was not trying to take it and was just watching TV several feet away from her. She DOES let my daughter take bones, toys, etc. without a problem. Isa doesn't growl, bark, or protect a toy/bone if my daughter reaches to get it though? So it's kind of confusing why she's protecting it from "afar"? BTW, dominance is not an issue at all with our 7 year old.
Any suggestions on what else I can be doing to help Isa know that she is at the bottom of the pack? I have my daughter give her meals to her and give her commands, but maybe there's something I'm missing. Isa DOES NOT go on the couch/furniture/beds, sleeps in her crate, and does not lead a "human" life in any way -- we were very careful about this because we sort of expected this issue may happen with our younger child.
Thanks for any advice! |
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- Andrea
Isa is our rescued GSP
First time dog owner and all-the-time-mom to humans & Isa. |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 02/09/2011 9:50 AM |
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Be careful, ISA WILL bite.
If she is growling at 10' then she does not see adults as pack leaders either.
Rolling on her back needs to stop - this will make the matter worse.
Can your children feed her by hand? Can they have her earn her food,bit by bit?
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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MainCreeksRemi
Wisconsin
MH
Posts:824
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| 02/09/2011 10:08 AM |
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I would work on NILF with her (Nothing in life is free).....make her understand and look to you for direction.
You could also incorporate the kids into this, by having the kids feed her by working for her food.
I'd make sure you are supervising at all times when the kids & dogs are together, and if need be, take away high value items such as bones, food & toys to help avoid that situation until you are feeling more comfortable with it. |
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Loved by Kelley:
Remi (7/3/2010) GSP
Morgan (5/17/2008) Choco Lab
Nallah (8/6/2006) Black Lab |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 02/09/2011 10:11 AM |
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| In addition to what pixie recommends, try having all the humans eat a cracker or cookie anything prior to giving Isa her food. You don't have to make an issue out of the eating, just put your crackers out so Isa can see them and then fix her food. Then all of the humans pick up their crackers and quietly eat the crackers. Then have your daughter feed Isa. All done with no emotion. Remember the alphas in the pack always eat before everyone else, and this is normal and expected behavior. I would also make sure the dog only follows the humans out doors going outside. Again, the alphas always lead out of the den. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
   
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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wisconsinative
JH
Posts:22
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| 02/09/2011 10:54 AM |
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I don't understand this dog sometimes - but I'm a fairly new dog owner. So after a growl and correction, submission is not a good thing? She does it herself, we don't force her on her side or anything. Just standing over her with a "no" makes her lay on her side by herself.
The kids feed her, take her food away, take toys, bones, etc. She responds to "drop" with the 4YO during fetch. No mouthing ever goes on, she gently takes the ball, returns it, etc. She has never once shown any food aggression and the kids can feed her by hand no problem. We always eat before we feed her.
Guess I'm having trouble understanding why she wouldn't see us as pack leaders. I feel like we do most things right and are pretty consistent (the kids/humans always go out the door first while she does a sit/stay, we eat before her..)
I will go back to having the kids feed her bit by bit. Like I mentioned, it's rare that she has a toy/bone available when my daughter is around. Do I take them away for good/indefinitely unless given to her by child and taken away by child? The only other problem area is perhaps her dog bed - do I take that away too?
The thing is about food is that is definitely NOT her motivation, and although we always eat dinner before her (she rarely eats her morning meal), I'm not sure she cares about any of that. Or maybe I'm way off base and regardless food controls....
Thanks everyone so far for your advice! |
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- Andrea
Isa is our rescued GSP
First time dog owner and all-the-time-mom to humans & Isa. |
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wisconsinative
JH
Posts:22
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| 02/09/2011 11:09 AM |
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| Maybe keeping a leash (without the handle to catch on anything) on her at all times while in the house? Any benefit to that? |
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- Andrea
Isa is our rescued GSP
First time dog owner and all-the-time-mom to humans & Isa. |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 02/09/2011 11:11 AM |
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It is not that the food is a motivation for her. Instead she still is uncomfortable in her position in the pack with regard to your youngest daughter and is trying to lead there. As for eating in front of her if you do not eat your food before you put her food down and let her then eat the exercise will not work. You say she doesn't eat breakfast. My next question is how often do you feed her? And do you leave the food down for her if she doesn't eat it? Or do you allow her to graze leaving her food out all day. If she is not eating in the morning I would either cut out the meal entirely or reduce the amount she gets at each meal. I would also eat whatever it is you are going to eat and then put her food down. Leave her food down for 5 or 10 minutes and if she has not eaten, pick it up and do not leave it down for her and do not give it back to her until it is her next mealtime. She has to learn that she eats on your schedule when you provide her the food or it goes away. That may be part or even all of the problem.
As for alpha rolls, or flipping a dog on the side, behaviorists now agree that that is typically more dangerous and causes more problems than it is worth. If the dog is doing it on his own that is a submissive behavior and totally different than you doing it. I would suspect your dog is uncertain in his pack position with regard to your youngest, does whatever she does, and then knows that you are upset and offers a submissive response to you. Remember dogs in a pack work out their position with each other, so my guess is your dog is ok with your position and the issue is between the dogs position and your youngest daughter. Hope that makes sense.
There are some good animal behavior books out there that might help you:
The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell
The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell
Aggression in Dogs by Brenda Aloff
I have read all of these and you might find any or all helpful in your situation. There are other books too out there and of course you could always find an animal behaviorist in your area that could evaluate what is going on.
Without being there to observe the entire scenario play out it is hard to catch all the nuances and give you a good response. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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pixie bee
MH
Posts:4452
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| 02/09/2011 11:18 AM |
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I don't understand this dog sometimes - but I'm a fairly new dog owner. So after a growl and correction, submission is not a good thing? She does it herself, we don't force her on her side or anything. Just standing over her with a "no" makes her lay on her side by herself.
What you are describing is an insecure dog. Rolling her will make matters worse.
She has never once shown any food aggression and the kids can feed her by hand no problem.
Accoding to your post, this is not true.
Guess I'm having trouble understanding why she wouldn't see us as pack leaders
When did the possissive guarding begin? What was the reaction and by whom?
Has it gotten worse or stayed the same?
I can say, if a dog is doing this every other day this is too often. You know to keep certain possessions away, how do you know this and how soon after having her did you notice this. Keeping certain possessions away from her will only cause it to rear its ugly head somepleace else. the issue needs to be solved, not swept under the rug.
What is the problem with the dog bed?
I believe you are dealing with an insecure dog.
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"Time with my dogs clears my mind, renews my faith, and lets me see the world as it is. My only regret loving dogs as I do, is the misery of their early departure." Robert G. Wehle
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wisconsinative
JH
Posts:22
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| 02/09/2011 11:28 AM |
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Bev (and everyone else!!)
Great advice, thank you!
I don't even know what an alpha roll really is - so I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it since I'm not touching her. She just lays on her side, very still when I correct her after a growl.
We feed her twice a day. Sometimes she's really hungry in the AM, and sometimes not - but usually not. I think it depends on what we did the day before, and how many calories she burned? I don't think we're overfeeding, because she will scarf a double serving in the PM - usually after we just did a long run.
Typically we do not take the uneaten food away in the AM, so that is something I can do something about right now. I just went and put it away until dinnertime. I guess I never worried about it because she's not a grazer, she just won't eat anything at all until dinner.
I also am going to even more aggressively implement NILF. I am hoping earning the meal and having my youngest get the food and Isa following a few commands to earn some bit by bit may eradicate the problem. Trouble is my daughter gets bored feeding her and starts complaining about how boring it is... But even if I can get her to do some of the kibble and then free her to eat when she's done hand feeding - even if it's 2 minutes.
I'm also going to take away her dog bed just to be on the safe side.
THANK YOU again for the great advice, and I am going to download those books to my iPad tonight! |
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- Andrea
Isa is our rescued GSP
First time dog owner and all-the-time-mom to humans & Isa. |
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clicklbd
SE PA
SH
Posts:53
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| 02/09/2011 12:27 PM |
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Wisconsinnative,
I couldn't tell if you were correcting her for growling? If so, please don't. You WANT your dog to growl. A growl is the dog telling you they are not happy about something. If they don't tell you, then your dog won't have a way of warning anyone, and that's when you start seeing bites.
I love the McConnell and Aloff books. You might also look for "MINE!" which has to do with resource guarding. It has some good protocols to work on, although I'd recommend talking to a professional in person (as opposed to online) when you come across a situation like this.
Also, don't ever ever leave the child alone with the dog. This is a 4 year old, and 4 year olds do things that are scary and unpredictable, particularly to a dog. If you go to the bathroom, either bring the kid or the dog. 
Good luck! |
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Patti |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3136
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| 02/09/2011 3:40 PM |
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yeah lots of good advice...
it sounds like you are not doing the dominant alpha roll thing...which is when you put the dog down on its side or back (at least I think that is what is meant by that)....don't start this it used to be a common practice but it has been outdated...
if your dog is going down on it's side on it's own just from a scolding it is insecure...my older dog if I just raise my voice he slinks down...he does not like being in trouble though so I don't usually have to raise my voice with him....
I think if your daughter feeds yours piece by piece with some sit down stay and come commands you may be able to work through this....
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wisconsinative
JH
Posts:22
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| 02/09/2011 4:37 PM |
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I think the food control may be the ticket. I'm cooking dinner and the dog generally used to start eating the leftover AM food by this time. Now she's all confused, sitting and looking at me right now with her paw up. Meanwhile, the kids are eating "pre dinner".
Don't know why this didn't occur to me, but she's never been food possessive so I didn't make the connection.
Also, I NEVER leave them alone with the dog. I'm always in the same room with them... if I have to go to the bathroom or whatever, either she follows me or I crate her if I can't watch her.
Everyone here made great points and in retrospect, I think that I haven't been as NILF motivated as I was the first 6 months after we rescued her (where NO growling occurred), and she's taking advantage of her freedom. So I need to be more disciplined and kind of go back to square 1 where we had the kids hand feeding her, giving her commands, etc.
THANK YOU again. |
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- Andrea
Isa is our rescued GSP
First time dog owner and all-the-time-mom to humans & Isa. |
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wisconsinative
JH
Posts:22
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| 02/09/2011 4:50 PM |
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This is the look I'm getting, "huh? what's going on? no dinner?"
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- Andrea
Isa is our rescued GSP
First time dog owner and all-the-time-mom to humans & Isa. |
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everbell
Kanata, ON
MH
Posts:3167
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| 02/09/2011 5:19 PM |
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Sounds like you are doing the right things. BTW -- Isa is beautiful. God bless you for rescuing her  |
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Joce and Rich
Bogart and Shiraz (GSPs)
Roxane (RIP: 1995-2009) and Tiger Lily (Cats)
The Everbell Adventures |
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wisconsinative
JH
Posts:22
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| 02/09/2011 5:30 PM |
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Successfully had the kids give some commands (sits and downs for the little one) and give her kibble AFTER we were done eating our dinner. I'll report back in a week or so and see if we've had any growling... but I have a feeling we won't!!!
This forum is seriously a lifesaver, I only wish I had time to participate more! Mom of two kids, business owner, AND a GSP! What was I thinking?  |
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- Andrea
Isa is our rescued GSP
First time dog owner and all-the-time-mom to humans & Isa. |
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wisconsinative
JH
Posts:22
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| 02/09/2011 5:33 PM |
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Should have posted this pathetic one instead.
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- Andrea
Isa is our rescued GSP
First time dog owner and all-the-time-mom to humans & Isa. |
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unowhoandwhy
Middleofnowhere, NH
MH
Posts:1805
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| 02/09/2011 5:37 PM |
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| She is beautiful... and very pathetic! My two have perfected that look as well. |
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Daniel Yankee Flyer - 8/2002
Lady Layla - 1/2006 |
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Texas Belle
Austin, TX
MH
Posts:7864
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| 02/09/2011 8:26 PM |
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| Isa is a beautiful girl. I hope everything works out and can't wait to hear about your success. |
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Bev Quarles, the Pointer Sisters (Belle and Halo), the Outlaw GSP (Johnny Ringo) and the little Princess (Fauna)
Yellow Rose GSPs
"A dog has the soul of a philosopher." - Plato |
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Splat
Illinois (Northern)
MH
Posts:3136
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| 02/10/2011 5:50 AM |
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| another thing to work on to get your daughter up on the alpha ladder is when going through a door way have her make the dog sit and wait for her to go through first and then have your dog call the dog through...same thing with stairs daughter first then dog... |
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Phillyo118
UK
MH
Posts:681
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| 02/10/2011 6:29 AM |
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I'm really a great believer in this whole "Alpha" thing. Dogs aren't stupid, they don't think we're another dog and that we're the Alpha dog or Pack leader. They love and respect us because we are a resource controller. Be it exercise, food, stimulation, attention...whatever it may be, it varies per dog. I PERSONALLY, and this is just my thoughts of course, don't think making a dog wait to walk through a door behind you is going to make him think you're higher in the "pack" as such. As someone has said, most certainly don't force your dog to roll onto her back as this can make a lot of dogs feel vulnerable and make them bite. If she does it herself then she is submitting to you and that is a different matter.
http://www.doglistener.co.uk/alpha/thealphamyth.shtml
Read the above article, this sums up my thoughts and feelings
Good luck.
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"From the dog's point of view, his master is an elongated and abnormally cunning dog."
"My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am." |
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