So, do those dogs have run?

I want to give a training scenario,if someone could give an explanation of how it would be handled with all positive.
Let's say the foundation work is solid and the dog has been successful 3 times in this task.
The dog is sent on a cast of 100 yards to retrieve a bumper. The handler decides to stop the dog and cast to the right for another bumper also 100 yards. The dog makes a few mistakes:
1) on the first cast the dog did not stop to the stop whistle

2) on the second cast the dog did not sit for the stop whistle, but turned to stand and face the handler

3) the dog flared on the return to the handler with the bumper


I do this with my dogs and I'd love to do it w/o the e-collar. In the training phase I use a lot of attrition and praise. I do end up using the e-collar for proofing.
I'm open to any ideas.

I have not ever trained the exact scenarios you describe.  That said the biggest challenge to success in at least scenarios 1 and 2 is you are asking the dog to do something, go out and get something, then in the middle of the first command, you are changing the command to do something else, stop on whistle and sit.  I see similar problems when I teach drop on recall, as I am calling the dog to me and then changing the command to stop and down.  Dogs are always confused by the change in command at first, so I break up a sequence like that into individual parts and work each part separate until the dog has a really good understanding of each piece.  Then I start putting the commands together.  So, here is what I would do.  I would first teach the dog to touch a target with their nose, then you could put the target wherever you want and send the dog to the target, eventually substituting the item you want them to retrieve. (Targetting is a neat tool that can be used in allot of training especially when working distances.) Separately you are also teaching the retrieve.  Also, separately, I would teach the sit from a stand (no whistle), I would then put the dog away from me in a stand and work the distance sit. Next step would be a sit from walking next to me, then while they are moving around in the backyard ask them to sit at a distance. Finally, I would add in the whistle after I give the verbal command (slowly fading the verbal command) to sit until the dog will sit wherever he is and whatever he is doing when the whistle is blown.  The dog needs to master each of the individual pieces well, and then you put them together.  If at any point the dog messes up, go back a step and retrain. This is a long and slow process, but at the end I find that dogs who have learned the pieces and then have everything put together are absolutely rock solid.  I have also found that if I try to move too fast with the dog, they will mess up in much the ways you described.  Also, I do not worry about slowness when chaining commands as that in my mind means the dog is thinking about things, and I have found that the dog gets faster as they get more comfortable with what they are doing. As for how long it would take to train this, I think it depends on the dog and the amount of time you have to train.  I would not spend hours each day training this though.  Instead I would spend short periods on each piece every day, maybe 10 minutes 3 or 4 times a day.

Ask any obedience trainer and they will tell you the hardest exercises to train are the ones where you chain a series of commands, but if you do it in pieces and then put it together you will have a solid dog.  Also, the more of this the dog does the easier it gets for them to put things together.

I am not sure what you meant by flared, so I didn't address the last case. 

I make a buzzer type sound, like the one they use for TV quizzes when you strike out " align="absMiddle" border="0" src="/DesktopModules/NTForums/themes/blue/emoticons/smile.gif" />

No is often overused in which case it will become white noise to a dog. Same happens when people talk to their dogs incessantly - it no longer means anything and the dogs tune it out.

Thanks Francine,

I really like Michael Ellis and his training methods.  I am fortunate to have 2 local trainers who work with him often and have dogs from his Loup de Soleil line of malinois.  Frawley kind of drives me insane, and I grit my teeth when he does the voice overs on the DVD's but I have respect for his choice to work with Michael.

I agree about the balance of pressure and correction.  I think anyone who has been turned off of marker training because of the typical clicker crowd should really give Michael a look.

Where do you live Francine?  He does seminars all over the US.