Tessa,

Does that apply to fetching as well?

Thanks,

Nate

Marie--that's very cool!! I think I can get it done too: )

As I've said several times, I still use some correction, such as a no or ah-ah, but no force. I hope to do that less and less; I feel it's usually my failure as a trainer to properly convey what behavior I desire. I completely agree with NTD about the use of compulsion in teaching/marking behaviors. Luring the behavior works much better for me, and as NTD stated, various 'lures' are used on my dogs...treats, tug, fetch...whatever motivates the dog best in the activity we're doing. With my ACD she is very food motivated, so I use that in many situations, but food doesn't really fit into training on the disc field, so most of the time out there a chase of the disc or a tug are what we use. My younger GSP isn't really into tugging, but in the field a short retrieve of a bumper often works as a good motivator.

I have to speak a little to what Tessa said earlier....Bev summed it up pretty well but I'd like to add to it. Comparing hunting vs disc (or agility or any other sport) as work vs play is really kind of unfair. What makes an activity 'work'? Aren't any of the sports a form of 'work' as it gives the dog a 'job' to do? I don't have sheep or cattle nor access to them so we do disc, and we train pretty intense at it. Yes maybe the positioning tricks I put pictures of look like silly/fun tricks but they are also used in disc for more difficult moves. I'd also contend there is a BIG difference between training just for toss and fetch with one disc and freestlye disc where you need to come up with a 2 minute routine with unique eye-catching moves. There's a reason when you go to a disc competition that you'll see 50 people competing in toss and fetch and maybe 10 in freestyle--because it's HARD. Shoot it's tough even teaching a dog to play with more than one disc; to drop one on the fly and chase after the next one. It took me FOREVER to teach my older GSP that! The dog does a lot of working away from you, following hand signals and body language, which is where the foundation of targeting can come in. I can get my ACD to drop to a down from a full run, which is something that would probably be used in herding, if we were lucky enough to be able to participate in herding. Trust me, training can be just as intense.

Oh and herding breeds are every bit as much working breeds as gun dogs are : )

Call it work or play, as long as you are doing any sport/activity with your dog you are enhancing the bond, which is nothing but a good thing.

Sara

I specifically stated at the beginning of the post that I did not mean to belittle disc, agility, etc. Of course that is "work" and there are huge accomplishments as well as a bond. And I guess there are people out there, as Bev has observed, that are applying more forceful methods to training these dogs, it just didn't occur to me that it could be so. I was only saying how I feel about it from what I've observed. Tessa is a companion dog to me first and foremost, and we dabble in frisbee and dock diving, she poses for plenty of pictures in all kinds of environments, etc, all taught with no force and I will continue to do so because applying the e-collar or pinch collars here makes no sense to me. Even if I would be involved in competing with her in these venues.

"Working dogs" is a pretty complex subject and it is not my intent to analyse each of the different jobs different breeds can hold and how to accomplish the goals. I am most familiar with Schutzhund and hunting dogs so those are two examples I mentioned.

Training Tessa for frisbee, dock diving, posing for pictures with positive reinforcement only works well. Any moving action - frisbee, a run, the water is enough reward for her in those situations to comply and do so with great enthusiasm. In regards to posing for photos, it is less fun for her but she does it perfectly anywhere I request it and I always reward that with a treat. My friends call her the model and I believe she knows that is her "job" at the moment.

Now, in the field she turns into a totally different dog. The field, the search, the birds have such a pull on her (obviously) that check cords at some point are not enough - they are simply a tool for us to control the dog while teaching it that the commands (recall, whoa) apply in the field too. Once the dog understands that but still chooses to go after the bird or ignore a recall then there need to be stronger consequences still, to get the point across. To me at least. I've watched my dog interrupt my friends' training sessions by crossing into their fields - that is not only rude and annoying but also potentially dangerous if there is shooting. She disappeared into a forest containing a load of flyaway quail, during a hunting test, ignoring my recall that is always so perfect in the park (even with whatever distractions there are). When the e-collar came into play, these problems were fixed.

In the field, to me, it's not a matter of passing a hunting test or placing in a field trial, it's not a matter of competition. It's about manners towards other people and their dogs out there, and mostly, about safety. I do not want her to decide to chase a flushing bird as someone shoots over her. I do not want her to show up in someone else's zone. I do not want her to run out of sight, then deciding to chase a deer out of the county.

Treats don't work here, she never as much as sniffs at them when in the field, much less eats them, even if they touch her mouth.
 

Just for fun, that's us at work, in an abandoned building, downtown Spruce Pine NC.

Again, by no means do I want to take away from those disc dogs. I've seen them in action at events and it is nothing short of amazing what they do.

I know most if not all of us have seen a bird dog hunt but here is a video that demonstrates the difference in range and proximity to handler, as compared to agility, disc, etc:

www.youtube.com/watch